1941, Oct, 6, Orel - Mzensk.

[Alex Yeliseenko]

4 PzD vs 4 Tbr

It is a question about battle on October, 6th 1941. The German group is measured to captured Mzensk.

The structure of German group includes 1 tank battalion, motorcycle battalion, company recon battalion 4 PzD, two divizions 103 Artillery Rgt, a platoon 88 Flak (from structure 11 Flakbtn), 105 mm bat (from 69 corps ArtRgt), Nebelwerfer bataree 53 RGT.

They are resisted with forces 4 Tbr and 201 VDBr.

Early in the morning the German advance party has reached river Lisitsa. Germans managed to captured the bridge. However further they have met massed fire of the Soviet tanks. Tanks were in ambushes. However Germans have beaten off the Soviet counterattack.

Soviet have declared, that German losses have made: 43 tanks, 16 ATG, 6 lorries, up to 500 soldier and officers.

Germans have recognized the losses: 10 tanks, from them 6 - destroyed. They also have lost: 2 - 88 Flak, 1 - 105 mm Htz, 1 - 105 mm gun.

Germans have declared, that Soviet have lost: 17 tanks, from them 8 KV and T-34, 11 ATG, 166 POW.

Soviet have recognized losses: 2 destroyed and 4 damaged tanks.

I shall be grateful for remarks and additions.

Regards.

[Art]

Alex, what is the source of the data on Katukov's losses and claims? And do you know that Shein was digging in the documents from Soviet side? AFAIK he intends to issue some material on 4th/1st Tank Briged in the "Frontline Illustration"

[Alex Yeliseenko]

Alex, what is the source of the data on Katukov's losses and claims? And do you know that Shein was digging in the documents from Soviet side? AFAIK he intends to issue some material on 4th/1st Tank Briged in the "Frontline Illustration"

Hi Art!

It is number FI has already left. I have been a little bit disappointed. There it is few new data.

----------------------------------------------

"Будь русским. Пиши кирилицей" (с).

[Art]

Well, as far as I understand Shein experianced great problems with sources. At least he have found virtually nothing relevant in the fund of the 4th TBr, may be he was more lucky with fund 38.

[Alex Yeliseenko]

In sources there are no 38 funds. Only 229, 3060, 202, 208, 405. From the German party only Neumann. New search in German archives is necessary. Neumann "bewitched" all. Its materials critically were not considered.

----------------------------------------------

"Будь русским. Пиши кирилицей" (с).

[Jan-Hendrik]

Neumann "bewitched" all. Its materials critically were not considered.

Any proof for this claim avaiable?

Jan-Hendrik

[Alex Yeliseenko]

Neumann "bewitched" all. Its materials critically were not considered.

Any proof for this claim avaiable?

Jan-Hendrik

Probably I used the wrong term. It is a question that Neumann is a unique source from the German party for Russian authors. You will help me? I do not know any other German research on these fights. Whether there were they?

[Jan-Hendrik]

Sorrowly I have only the War diary of the Ia Abteilung/3.PzDiv. for that time frame, not 4.Panzerdivision. And the entries there are focussed on the advance to Orel.

Jan-Hendrik

[Alex Yeliseenko]

Sorrowly I have only the War diary of the Ia Abteilung/3.PzDiv. for that time frame, not 4.Panzerdivision. And the entries there are focussed on the advance to Orel.

Jan-Hendrik

I had which that from this diary. But has lost the scanned text when my computer has burned down.

[Jan-Hendrik]

Thats why I make external DVD-copies of all relevant material and store the at a friend's house

Jan-Hendrik

[Alex Yeliseenko]

Jan-Hendrik, es sind die militärtagebücher PD 4 veröffentlicht?

[Jan-Hendrik]

No.

Jan-Hendrik

[Qvist]

I have nothing on 4.PzD materiel losses, but I can tell you something of their reported personnell losses (killed, wounded and missing) in this period. As of 29 September, they had suffered a cumulative 139 officer losses and 3,136 other ranks. By 10 October, that had increased to 163/3,522, or an additional 410 men.Source, HG Mitte IIa reports.

cheers

[Jan-Hendrik]

KTB 4.Pz.Div. contains this report:

0645.JPG (151.02 KiB) Viewed 1997 times

0646.JPG (190.08 KiB) Viewed 1997 times

0647.JPG (176.31 KiB) Viewed 1997 times

Jan-Hendrik

[Jan-Hendrik]

And:

0648.JPG (169.72 KiB) Viewed 1997 times

Jan-Hendrik