chinese artillery in 1931-1945

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robertm
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Re: chinese artillery in 1931-1945

Postby robertm » 10 Feb 2013 17:48

YC Chen wrote:
robertm wrote:Wonderful pictures. Thank you.
There are a couple of pictures of trucks with German 10. cm guns in the thread about soft skin vehicles.

Another question. Does anybody have any idea about how many pieces of different guns that China had?

Hello,
Accroding to a document, the Nationalist had at least 750 different kinds of guns(including 15cm heavy mortars, but other mortars are not included) in 1943. This was before the American equipment flowed in.
I also remember seeing a statistic of artillery for Communist force during WW2 but I can't find it now. I remember there were 200 to 300 guns in 8RA, more than 100 in N4A, including all kinds of mortars.


750 different kind of guns! Ouch what a logistic nightmare! 8O
Are there any kind that was far more common than the others?

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Re: chinese artillery in 1931-1945

Postby Clive Mortimore » 10 Feb 2013 18:37

OldBill wrote:
YC Chen wrote:A little off topic, but can anyone ID these naval AA guns on flatcars? The photo was taken in March 1950 during Hainan Island Campaign.



Those are not naval guns, they are the garden variety 40 L60 Bofors AA guns. Look closely at the photos and you can make out the four wheels on the mounts.

EDIT: These may also be Soviet M1939 37mm AA guns. We may be able to tell from the shape of the gun shield.


They appear to be British or Canadian built Bofors guns, they have tubular out riggers which are found on MkII and MkIII mounts and have Stiffkey Sticks (Sight Correctional MkV) attached to the sights. How and why the Chinese have them I don't know.
Clive

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YC Chen
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Re: chinese artillery in 1931-1945

Postby YC Chen » 18 Feb 2013 12:30

robertm wrote:
YC Chen wrote:
robertm wrote:Wonderful pictures. Thank you.
There are a couple of pictures of trucks with German 10. cm guns in the thread about soft skin vehicles.

Another question. Does anybody have any idea about how many pieces of different guns that China had?

Hello,
Accroding to a document, the Nationalist had at least 750 different kinds of guns(including 15cm heavy mortars, but other mortars are not included) in 1943. This was before the American equipment flowed in.
I also remember seeing a statistic of artillery for Communist force during WW2 but I can't find it now. I remember there were 200 to 300 guns in 8RA, more than 100 in N4A, including all kinds of mortars.


750 different kind of guns! Ouch what a logistic nightmare! 8O
Are there any kind that was far more common than the others?


Yes it is a logistic nightmare, and it got even worse after 1945 when they had all those American and Japanese stuff.

During and after WW2 it was an important task for the Nationalist arsenals to covert one gun's ammunition so the surplus ammo could be used by those guns which had run out of its ammo. As far as I can remember, the Bofors 7.5cm mountain gun shell was adapted to be used by Schneider 7.5cm mountain guns and Liao made Type 14 7.7cm field guns(copies of Austrian Bohler M-18), also Russian 7.62cm shells were adapted to be used by Han made Type 10 mountain gun(copy of Japanese Type 41). There are many other examples.

And it was also an important task for the logistic department to issue handbooks on how to identify different ammunitions to prevent confusing. Both Nationalists and Communists issued these handbooks and I have some in my collection. I always think it must be very difficult to be a Chinese artilleryman in the 1940s every time I read these things... :roll:

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Re: chinese artillery in 1931-1945

Postby YC Chen » 18 Feb 2013 12:34

Clive Mortimore wrote:
OldBill wrote:
YC Chen wrote:A little off topic, but can anyone ID these naval AA guns on flatcars? The photo was taken in March 1950 during Hainan Island Campaign.



Those are not naval guns, they are the garden variety 40 L60 Bofors AA guns. Look closely at the photos and you can make out the four wheels on the mounts.

EDIT: These may also be Soviet M1939 37mm AA guns. We may be able to tell from the shape of the gun shield.


They appear to be British or Canadian built Bofors guns, they have tubular out riggers which are found on MkII and MkIII mounts and have Stiffkey Sticks (Sight Correctional MkV) attached to the sights. How and why the Chinese have them I don't know.


Thank you for these clear identification.

China do have a number of Bofors 40mm AA gun, some of them even appeared in the parade of 1st October 1949. But their origin has always been a mystery. Many Bofors 40mm shells used by China was in fact made in Poland, and I have seen a Nationalist ammunition handbook explain this as "captured by the Russians and then supplied to China", but I doubt this theory. It is not impossible that they were ordered directly from Poland along with some other Polish weapons in 1938.

RexMcL
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Re: chinese artillery in 1931-1945

Postby RexMcL » 22 Feb 2013 01:27

Can anyone provide more information than the caption about these guns?

Image

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Akira Takizawa
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Re: chinese artillery in 1931-1945

Postby Akira Takizawa » 22 Feb 2013 05:18

RexMcL wrote:Can anyone provide more information than the caption about these guns?

They will be Type 14 77mm Field Guns. As stated in the caption, they were made at Mukden Arsenal and captured by the Japanese in Manchurian Incident.

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Re: chinese artillery in 1931-1945

Postby YC Chen » 23 Feb 2013 17:21

The second photo is doubtlessly Type 14. But take a look at the first photo, this is not Type 14. I think it looks like Japanese 15cm cannon Type 38, maybe sold to Fengtian force before 1931?

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Re: chinese artillery in 1931-1945

Postby YC Chen » 23 Feb 2013 17:28

This newspaper photo from 1927 shows fengtian soldiers pushing a large gun much bigger than Liao Type 14. I think this is the same gun as shown in the first photo.
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Akira Takizawa
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Re: chinese artillery in 1931-1945

Postby Akira Takizawa » 24 Feb 2013 06:02

YC Chen wrote:I think it looks like Japanese 15cm cannon Type 38, maybe sold to Fengtian force before 1931?

No, it is not Type 38 15cm Howitzer. In Japanese artillery, it resembles Type 38 10cm Cannon. Though I have never heard that it was sold to China, it would be Type 38 10cm Cannon.

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Re: chinese artillery in 1931-1945

Postby YC Chen » 24 Feb 2013 12:39

Yes I meant 10cm cannon Type 38... my typo.

Also I have found no Chinese source mentioning 10cm Type 38 in service with Fengtian force, but in a photo showing ammunitions produced in Mukden arsenal there are two shells marked "10.5cm shell" and "10.5cm sharpnel" on display. Maybe produced in Mukden for 10cm Type 38?

Also there was a mysterious "10cm L/37 cannon Type 19 made in Mukden arsenal" mentioned in some Chinese documents which perhaps only existed on the drawing board. Whether this "Type 19" is related to Japanese or European design I don't know.

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Re: chinese artillery in 1931-1945

Postby YC Chen » 24 Feb 2013 12:43

Taki can you provide a list of Japanese guns that you know was supplied to China before 1937? The following is what I know:
7.5cm field gun Type 31
7.5cm mountain gun Type 31
7.5cm mountain gun Type 6(Type 41)
7.5cm field gun Type 38
7.5cm field gun Type 38 Kai
12cm howitzer Type 38
15cm howitzer Type 38

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Re: chinese artillery in 1931-1945

Postby kz11gr » 24 Feb 2013 13:18

nice pictures. thank you

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Akira Takizawa
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Re: chinese artillery in 1931-1945

Postby Akira Takizawa » 24 Feb 2013 14:36

Artillery which Japan sold to China until 1918 is as follows.

331 Type 31 Field Guns and Mountain Guns
258 Type 38 Field Guns
14 Type 31 Mountain Guns
368 Type 6 Mountain Guns
12 Type 38 12cm Howitzers
8 Type 38 15cm Howitzers

Japan stopped to export weapons to China in 1919 according to Western moral embargo to China. I think that Japan exported only small arms to China after that.

Taki

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Re: chinese artillery in 1931-1945

Postby YC Chen » 25 Feb 2013 11:32

Akira Takizawa wrote:Artillery which Japan sold to China until 1918 is as follows.

331 Type 31 Field Guns and Mountain Guns
258 Type 38 Field Guns
14 Type 31 Mountain Guns
368 Type 6 Mountain Guns
12 Type 38 12cm Howitzers
8 Type 38 15cm Howitzers

Japan stopped to export weapons to China in 1919 according to Western moral embargo to China. I think that Japan exported only small arms to China after that.

Taki


Thanks a lot! However, should the "14 Type 31 Mountain Guns" be Type 41 mountain guns?

I think, that Japan provided artillery (or artillery components) to Fengtian clique through some cannels in 1920s; and some Chinese reports seem to sugguest that some Japanese artillerists served in Fengtian army during the first Chili-fengtian war in 1922.

Did the Japanese resume exportation of artillery to China after the "unification" of China was completed in 1930? I have read some Chinese accounts saying that some Type 38 Kai were sold to China "just before the Manchurian Incident". Is this possible?

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Re: chinese artillery in 1931-1945

Postby YC Chen » 25 Feb 2013 11:34

Akira Takizawa wrote:Artillery which Japan sold to China until 1918 is as follows.

331 Type 31 Field Guns and Mountain Guns
258 Type 38 Field Guns
14 Type 31 Mountain Guns
368 Type 6 Mountain Guns
12 Type 38 12cm Howitzers
8 Type 38 15cm Howitzers

Japan stopped to export weapons to China in 1919 according to Western moral embargo to China. I think that Japan exported only small arms to China after that.

Taki

Thanks a lot! However, should the "14 Type 31 Mountain Guns" be Type 41 mountain guns?

I think, that Japan provided artillery (or artillery components) to Fengtian clique through some cannels in 1920s; and some Chinese reports seem to sugguest that some Japanese artillerists served in Fengtian army during the first Chili-fengtian war in 1922.

Did the Japanese resume exportation of artillery to China after the "unification" of China was completed in 1930? I have read some Chinese accounts saying that some Type 38 Kai were sold to China "just before the Manchurian Incident". Is this possible?


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