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Chinese and Korean Participation in the Russian Civil War

Discussions on all aspects of China, from the beginning of the First Sino-Japanese War till the end of the Chinese Civil War.
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Re: Chinese and Korean Participation in the Russian Civil War

Postby Borys on 24 Mar 2008 08:42

Ahoj!
My grandfather (died before my birth) passed on to my father a story of capturing of a Chinese Red Army soldier during the 1920 attack on Kiev.

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Re: Chinese and Korean Participation in the Russian Civil War

Postby qwerty_vl on 28 Sep 2009 21:43

Beiyang government in Beijing decided to join Allied forces in 1918. There were around 2000 men sent to the Far-East of Russia. Mainly in Ussuriisk (Nikolskoe), Vladivostok, Khabarovsk. 33th regiment of 9th inf. stationed in Ussuriisk, light cruiser Hai Yung (海容 Hai Rong) was in Vladivostok.

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Chinese and Korean Participation in the Russian Civil War

Postby Kim Sung on 29 Sep 2009 09:46

qwerty_vl wrote:Beiyang government in Beijing decided to join Allied forces in 1918. There were around 2000 men sent to the Far-East of Russia. Mainly in Ussuriisk (Nikolskoe), Vladivostok, Khabarovsk. 33th regiment of 9th inf. stationed in Ussuriisk, light cruiser Hai Yung (海容 Hai Rong) was in Vladivostok.

Here is a detailed article on Chinese participation in the Russian Civil War on the side of the allies. Actually, they fought in the former Chinese territory.

http://bbs.tiexue.net/post2_3349227_1.html

But a much larger number of Chinese volunteers fought on the side of Bolsheviks. According to this Chinese article, during the Russian Civil War, about 50,000 Chinese fought for the Bolsheviks. Chinese units contributed to liberation of Crimea in November 1920. In 1927, the Soviet government built a monument to eulogize Chinese soldiers' heroic deeds, which was demolished in 1961 due to Sino-Soviet feud.
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Re: Chinese and Korean Participation in the Russian Civil War

Postby David Thompson on 29 Sep 2009 15:36

An off-topic exchange, initiated by cortodanzigese and his seemingly habitual preoccupation with Jews, was removed by this moderator -- DT. Now let's get back on topic.
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Re: Chinese and Korean Participation in the Russian Civil War

Postby cortodanzigese on 29 Sep 2009 16:07

I am sorry for problem David, but discussing bolshevik revolution without mentioning Jews, is like discussing Nazism without mentioning Germans. :|
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Re: Chinese and Korean Participation in the Russian Civil War

Postby David Thompson on 29 Sep 2009 16:18

The subject here is Chinese and Korean participation in the Russian Civil war, so let's not get fanciful.
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Re: Chinese and Korean Participation in the Russian Civil War

Postby cortodanzigese on 29 Sep 2009 16:21

OK :wink:
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Re: Chinese and Korean Participation in the Russian Civil War

Postby qwerty_vl on 29 Sep 2009 23:58

Kim Sung wrote:Here is a detailed article on Chinese participation in the Russian Civil War on the side of the allies. Actually, they fought in the former Chinese territory.

http://bbs.tiexue.net/post2_3349227_1.html

But a much larger number of Chinese volunteers fought on the side of Bolsheviks. According to this Chinese article, during the Russian Civil War, about 50,000 Chinese fought for the Bolsheviks. Chinese units contributed to liberation of Crimea in November 1920. In 1927, the Soviet government built a monument to eulogize Chinese soldiers' heroic deeds, which was demolished in 1961 due to Sino-Soviet feud.


Thanks for the link, seen it before. I know many of them fought on side of Bolshevicks, but also there was considerable amount of those who were supposed to be on "white's" side. It is also true, that 33th regiment was mainly involved in border trade rather than fighting Bolshevicks. Well known fact, that Beiyang squadron of gunboats, which was sent to "restore" the right of China to sail from Amur (Heilongjiang) to Sungari (Songhuajiang) had been held by Japanese in Nikolaevsk, than got one ship sank in clash with ataman Kalmykov's forces near Khabarovsk, returned to Nikolaevsk and was involved in so-called "Nikolaevsk massacre".
Anyhow, they were not all along in fighting on both sides, Czechs are another example.

Besides, what do you mean by "they fought in the former Chinese territory"? :)

Here comes the portrait of "Hai Yung" cruiser's commander Lin Jianzhang (林建章) from Duke University digital collection

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Re: Chinese and Korean Participation in the Russian Civil War

Postby Peter H on 30 Sep 2009 00:04

qwerty

Thanks for all this really interesting information.

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Re: Chinese and Korean Participation in the Russian Civil War

Postby qwerty_vl on 30 Sep 2009 21:54

Peter H wrote:qwerty
Thanks for all this really interesting information.
Peter

It's ok.
another picture from Robert Eichelberger papers in Duke University. high rank Chinese officers harvesting some decorations from Japanese commanders in Vladivostok. 1919
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caption: Gen Grams, Gen [?]- head of British Mission, Commander Lin- [?] - Chinese forces, Chinese Colonel- name unpronounceable, Colonel Vuch[?]- Czech Town [Major?], Major Broz- Czech military diplomat, Gen. Ina[?]- Japanese chief of staff reading.

so, it is Lin Jianzhang again and most probably Song Huanzhang (宋焕章) 33th regiment commander.
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Re: Chinese and Korean Participation in the Russian Civil War

Postby qwerty_vl on 01 Oct 2009 08:36

need some help in identification of Chinese officers.
This is one of the most known photograph of Inter-Allied forces in the Far East of Russia. Gen. Graves, Otani and others.
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There are 3 Chinese officers among them:
Brig.Gen. Yuyousi (spelling could be incorrect)
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Col. Fuching and Maj. Ou
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Checked all available "who's who", but found nothing. Any idea of who is Brig.General Yuyousi?
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Chinese and Korean Participation in the Russian Civil War

Postby Kim Sung on 01 Oct 2009 09:59

qwerty_vl wrote:Besides, what do you mean by "they fought in the former Chinese territory"? :)

Before the Aigun Treaty (1858) and the Beijing Treaty (1860), the so-called Russian Far East was the Chinese territory.

When the Chinese government was forced to cede the territory east of the Ussuri river to Russia in 1860, the Korean territory in the Khasan (하산, 下山 : The name Khasan originated from a Korean word) area was also ceded to Russia by Chinese officials' mistake. The Chosun government was not aware of this change until July 1861. The Korean government protested strongly to the Chinese government about this measure but got only a reply that the Chinese government couldn't do anything about that.
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Re: Chinese and Korean Participation in the Russian Civil War

Postby qwerty_vl on 02 Oct 2009 00:08

Kim Sung wrote:Before the Aigun Treaty (1858) and the Beijing Treaty (1860), the so-called Russian Far East was the Chinese territory.

Ohmygod! Thank you, never heard about it. Chinese since when? Mohe? Bohai? Churchen? Mongol? Manchur? :wink:
As for Korean-Manchurian border line on Tumen river: it could be interesting subject for discussion.

Back to civil war: could you please identify that General? What could be his rank in Chinese?
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Re: Chinese and Korean Participation in the Russian Civil War

Postby qwerty_vl on 02 Oct 2009 04:19

Kim Sung wrote:When the Chinese government was forced to cede the territory east of the Ussuri river to Russia in 1860, the Korean territory in the Khasan (하산, 下山 : The name Khasan originated from a Korean word) area was also ceded to Russia by Chinese officials' mistake. The Chosun government was not aware of this change until July 1861. The Korean government protested strongly to the Chinese government about this measure but got only a reply that the Chinese government couldn't do anything about that.


Tried my best to find name Khasan (하산, 下山) in any published document before 1860 and failed. Can you supply the necessary info? Please check the following map, believe you will find it interesting, or beautifully drawn at least. Notice that small river 分界江.

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Re: Chinese and Korean Participation in the Russian Civil War

Postby qwerty_vl on 02 Oct 2009 04:53

Kim Sung wrote:When the Chinese government was forced to cede the territory east of the Ussuri river to Russia in 1860, the Korean territory in the Khasan (하산, 下山 : The name Khasan originated from a Korean word) area was also ceded to Russia by Chinese officials' mistake. The Chosun government was not aware of this change until July 1861. The Korean government protested strongly to the Chinese government about this measure but got only a reply that the Chinese government couldn't do anything about that.


May be this map will help to find Khasan? Sorry, that all names are written in aboriginal language, but you must forgive Jesuits for this, it was the strict order of Manchurian Son of Heaven to put Chinese names in Chinese, Manchurian in their language, as for the map of Korea, it was done later by Chinese astronomers.
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Sorry for being sarcastic, but got a little bit tired of endless "海参崴是我们的" historians speeches. :)

To keep in subject of civil war: Chinese troops on parade in Vladivostok. 1919

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