Two photos: Weapons ID?

[YC Chen]

And the rear view:

[SASH155]

I am referring to both photos. However, they do not seem to the same model of gun (the top photo said to be in Shanghai shows what appears to be a heavier gun); so, are they just Imperial Japanese Navy guns mounted onshore? If not, did China acquire some Schneider naval guns for coast defense?

[YC Chen]

Well... I'm sure the guns in Shanghai are Chinese guns or at least imported by China.
My opinion: maybe they are heavy fortress guns made by Shanghai Arsenal（上海兵工厂）in 1880s and 1890s, and they are copies of foreign designs. They built 180-pound(1887), 250-pound(1888), 800-pound(1892) and 380-pound(1897) fortress guns. It is said that at least some of the guns in Huangpu and Wusong forts were made by Shanghai Arsenal.

[Manuferey]

These two guns seem to have Schneider-Creusot breech rings and interupted screw breech blocks with the typical Schneider breech block lever over the top of the block carrier.

Maybe inspired from the 100 mm Schneider-Canet Mle 1898?
http://www.bulgarianartillery.it/Bulgar ... 0Naval.htm


Regarding the picture poste by WestSand on 17 Jun 2010 04:05, there's a resemblance with the Vickers Armstrong 15 cm L47.5 used for instance by Norway:
viewtopic.php?f=70&t=111267&start=120

Emmanuel

[fer-de-lance]

I don't think anyone had identified this LMG - the Hotchkiss Modele 1922. The Chinese bought a number using strip feed from the right hand side.

[YC Chen]

I remember seeing a photo of this kind of LMG in some KMT document photos, but not sure.

Now I'm sure that the museum photos I have posted show Armstrong 4.7-inch naval guns. As for the guns in woosung fortress, I assume that they were made by Shanghai arsenal but I'm not sure.

[YC Chen]

So, can anyone identify this coastal/naval gun? The photo was taken by Japanese in Jiangsu Province.
This gun looked quite modern in the time of late 1930s, quite different with the old coastal guns at that time. I don't know if this is a naval gun or a coastal gun.
There are some manufacturer's inscriptions on it.

[jopaerya]

Hello

The gun looks to me a German 15 cm S.K.C/28 gun .

Regards Jos

[YC Chen]

Hmm... Found this on the Overvalwagen Forum. Quite useful.
http://www.network54.com/Forum/330333/t ... cvEj7lb8sg

[fer-de-lance]

I remember seeing a photo of this kind of LMG in some KMT document photos, but not sure.

Something like this perhaps??

Chinese troops firing Hotchkiss Mle 1922 at air target.jpg

[YC Chen]

Hmm... I can't remember exactly, I haven't see that bunch of photos for years.
Here is another interesting photo of three French LMGs(unfortunately no Hotchkiss) and a MG34. The military museum in Beijing has all of these types in its collection, so I assume in late 1940s the Nationalists have all these kinds of machine guns in service.
In fact, KMT bought weapons from various Eourpean countries in the beginning of the war against Japanese. There is a Polish wz.30 HMG on display in the museum in Beijing and I had been wondering how it had found its way in China until I read a document which said that they recevied arms from Poland in 1938...

[fer-de-lance]

The Chauchat (Fusil-Milrailleur Ml2 1915) in 8mm Lebel needed its distinctive curved magazine because it used ammunition with a rimmed case (8mm x 50mmR). That's why the Bren and the Japanese Type 99 also used curved magazines - rimmed cased (7.7mm x 56mmR "0.303" and 7.7mm x 58mmR "Arisaka"). The rim sticks out to allow an extraction device to pull the empty case out of the chamber after it is fired.

Rimless cases are the have an extractor groove recessed into the base of the case to allow extraction.

http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/Historic%20MGs.htm

Rimless ammounition like the 7.92mm x 57mm "Mauser", the 7.62mm x 63mm ".30-06" and the French 7.5mm x 54mm can be fed smoothly using straight magazines (which simplifies production). That's why the Brno Zb.26, the Browning automatic rifle (BAR) and the French Chatellerault Mle 1924 / 1929 and 1931 uses straight magazines.

Chatellerault Mle 1924_29.jpg

The French produced 19,241 Chauchats for the U.S. Army during World War I chambered for the .30-06. This version used a straight 16-round magazine. The U.S. Army adopted the Browning Automatic Rifle after WWI and the "Caliber .30 Chauchat M1918" probably made it on to the second-hand market.

Caliber .30 M1918 CSRG_1.jpg

Poland sold large numbers of zw.29 rifles to China in the 1930's. They also produced the BAR (Model 28)and the water-cooled export version of the Colt-Browning M1917 under license. Wouldn't be surprised if some of them made their way to China also.

Here's a cleaned up version of the photo you posted - saves people having to crane their neck (or turn their laptop side-ways) to look at it ...

French and German LMG.jpg

[YC Chen]

Thank you for your additional info. They are especially helpful for a person who do not know much about smallarms, like me.
However, you mentioned "Polish zw.29 rifle", do you mean wz.29? I haven't found a polish rifle called zw.29 yet.
BTW, accroding to the caption, the Chauchats in my photo are both 8mm, but one with curved magazine and the other with an ammunition strip or another type of magazine(which does not very much look like the magazine on .30 Chauchat).

[fer-de-lance]

Typo - should be wz. (for "wzór" or model) 29. (My Polish friends would never let me live down this gaff .

Regarding the caption for the Chauchat, there is a very simple answer: the large capacity, straight magazine cannot properly feed the 8mm Lebel bullet because it has a rimmed case. Therefore, the Chauchat in the photo simply cannot be chambered for the rimmed 8mm Lebel.

The photo itself reminds me of one in an old reference book in my collection, Joseph Smith's "Small Arms of the World, 10th edition, publ. 1973 by Stackpole, Harrisburg, PA. The photo of the Caliber .30 M1918 Light Machine Gun, C.S.R.G. on p.377 was taken with the straight magazine propped up against the magazine well but not inserted. The rounds inside the magazine can be seen (through a slot on the side) not aligned with the chamber and the barrel.

Caliber .30 M1918 LMG Chauchat.jpg

The photo of the Chauchat with the Chinese caption is "posed" the same way. The magazine is also the same design as the one in the "Small Arms of the World" photo - straight, with smooth sides, a slot in the middle at the upper end and a bar at the bottom. Coincidence? Perhaps. Given that the caption is almost certainly wrong - one wonders if it is simply the same photo mis-labeled.

Chauchat comparisons.jpg

Originally, I was too lazy to scan this photo to post here and I used one found one on the internet. The photo of the .30 caliber Chauchat found on the internet has a magazine of a different design. It is slightly curved and has reinforcing ribs. The magazine is also inserted into the magazine well - that's why it is at a different angle to the straight magazine in the other photo(s).

Caliber .30 M1918 CSRG_1a.jpg

[YC Chen]

It's highly possible that the photos I posted were just copied from foreign sources and intended to show some foreign weapons to KMT officers. However, I do think Chinese army had some 8mm Chauchat.
Finally found the photos I mentioned.Not sure if this is a Hotchkiss. I think(not sure) that these photos were taken by Nationalist troop themselves, not copied from other sources.
BTW, Is ZB53/Vz.37 and ZB37 the same gun?