MG 42 and StG 44 in China?

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HC8604
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Re: [Question] MG42 and StG44 in China?

Postby HC8604 » 09 Nov 2009 03:17

I don't think the NRA ever used those weapons. Probably the Museum obtained these to expand their collection or represent other parts of the world.

Or maybe supplied by USSR in the 1950s-60s and displayed? But I do not know the history on that so it is just a big guess.

Did the weapons have any captions or info displayed to what they were used for?

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Re: [Question] MG42 and StG44 in China?

Postby YC Chen » 10 Nov 2009 10:36

Some people believe that the MP40 was given by a Yugoslavian museum in 1980s, but an article from a famous Chinese magazine "Smallarms"(《轻兵器》) claims that the MP40 was captured by the PLA during Chinese Civil War.
No further information on the other weapons mentioned. On a number of Chinese forums, people have discussed on this topic many times but no one can actually solve the mystery.
However, I have seen a KMT document photo taken in late 1940s shows a MG34, so I believe NRA did possess a number of MG34.

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Re: [Question] MG42 and StG44 in China?

Postby Leonard » 14 Nov 2009 06:12

The American supplied the NRA with captured German weapons and ammunition (mostly from the defeated African Corps). That's why Chinese are still firing their 150mm sFH18 in 1945.

It is possible that some of the MG42 and StG44 are shipped as well. I have no proof of that. But I believe it is more likely than the Soviet supplying them.

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Re: [Question] MG42 and StG44 in China?

Postby HC8604 » 16 Nov 2009 06:39

A good source for Chinese firearms?

Why not here:
http://www.chinesefirearms.com

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Re: [Question] MG42 and StG44 in China?

Postby HC8604 » 20 Nov 2009 04:05

The American supplied the NRA with captured German weapons and ammunition (mostly from the defeated African Corps). That's why Chinese are still firing their 150mm sFH18 in 1945.


Hey, I was wondering where is the source to that? I would be interested in looking further into that.

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Re: [Question] MG42 and StG44 in China?

Postby Leonard » 20 Nov 2009 04:18

HC8604 wrote:
The American supplied the NRA with captured German weapons and ammunition (mostly from the defeated African Corps). That's why Chinese are still firing their 150mm sFH18 in 1945.


Hey, I was wondering where is the source to that? I would be interested in looking further into that.


I read that a while ago in a Chinese publication. There was no exact amount and time of delivery in the article. I believe the Russian may also have supplied some prior to Pearl Harbor.

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Re: [Question] MG42 and StG44 in China?

Postby YC Chen » 27 Nov 2009 13:22

Leonard wrote:The American supplied the NRA with captured German weapons and ammunition (mostly from the defeated African Corps). That's why Chinese are still firing their 150mm sFH18 in 1945.

It is possible that some of the MG42 and StG44 are shipped as well. I have no proof of that. But I believe it is more likely than the Soviet supplying them.

I don't know about the sFH18, but in 1945 China was able to make ammunition for some German weapons, like the 3.7cm anti-tank guns.
BTW, can you give us the exact source? I'm very interested in that.

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Re: [Question] MG42 and StG44 in China?

Postby GD,grenedier » 28 Nov 2009 18:54

To get a better read on this subject, check out "Mauser backbone of the Wehrmact" by I believe Richard law,he mentions an incident around 40-41 with Madam Kai-sheck who convinced them to assemble rejected (but functional) Mauser parts into working rifles.Since the standard caliber used by the nationalist Chinese was 7.92x57 its no surprise that the mg34/42 was used (42 was likely a postwar addition) as a matter of point although the Chinese could and did produce Mausers combat attrition would have put a serious strain on domestic production. as for the mp44, who knows, not wartime,Germany was in no condition to be giving badly needed weapons to anybody, postwar on the other hand Europe was awash with small arms and no dought smuggled/sold to whoever had the cash(lookup Israil circa 45-50, Yow!). then if your really feeling it,check out the Chinese and the c96 Mauser. as for the political situation between Japan&Germany thats a book in itself. ..have fun :D .

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Re: [Question] MG42 and StG44 in China?

Postby YC Chen » 12 Jul 2010 09:38

Another two possible explainations of late-war German weapons in Chinese museums:
1: Recently I read an Chinese article which said that about 400000 or 500000 small arms and 2000 pieces of artillery were given to PLA in Manchuria by Soviet army in 1946 and 1947. Most of them, of course, were weapons of defeated Japanese Kwantong Army, but it also said that there are some German weapons and even American weapons given to Soviet Union under Lend-Lease.
2: The most possible explaination: accroding to some sources, Soviet Union gave PLA a number of captured German weapons in 1950s for training purpose.

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photo taken in late 1940s shows a MG34

Postby Dave Bender » 12 Jul 2010 21:29

KMT China produced a licensed copy of the MG34. They also produced some MP18 SMGs.

I doubt they produced MG42s and StG44s. Obtaining and setting up the tooling under wartime circumstances would have been almost impossible.

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Re: photo taken in late 1940s shows a MG34

Postby HC8604 » 13 Jul 2010 03:11

Dave Bender wrote:KMT China produced a licensed copy of the MG34.


Any source for that? I have never seen this before, not even period pictues. Even the German vehicles imported into China were not equipped with the MG34.

From the chinesefirearms website, it basically says that Chinese aresenals were incapable of producing the MG34 because of the complexity of the weapon.

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Any source for that?

Postby Dave Bender » 13 Jul 2010 03:20

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Germa ... %80%931941)
German assistance in the military realm was not limited to personnel training and reorganization, but also involved military hardware. According to von Seeckt, around eighty percent of China's weapons output was below par or unsuitable for modern warfare. Therefore, projects were undertaken to expand and upgrade existing armories along the Yangtze River and to create new arsenals and munitions plants. For example, the Hanyang Arsenal was reconstructed during 1935–1936 to bring its standards up to date. The arsenal was to produce Maxim machine guns, various 82 mm trench mortars and the Chiang Kai-shek rifle (中正式; Zhōngzhèng Shì), which was based on the German Karabiner 98k rifle. The Chiang Kai-shek and Hanyang 88 rifles remained as the predominant firearm used by Chinese armies throughout the war.[26] Another factory was established to produce gas masks, with plans to construct a mustard gas plant that was eventually scrapped. In May 1938, several arsenals were built in Hunan to produce 20mm, 37 mm, and 75 mm artilleries. In late 1936 a plant was built near Nanking to manufacture military optical equipment such as binoculars and sniper rifle scopes. Additional arsenals were built or upgraded to manufacture other weapons and ordnances, such as the MG-34, pack guns of different calibers, and even replacement parts for vehicles of the Leichter Panzerspähwagen series serving in the Chinese army. Several research institutes were also established under German auspices, such as the Ordnance and Arsenal Office, the Chemical Research Institute under the direction from IG Farben, and others. Many of these institutes were headed by German-returned Chinese engineers. In 1935 and 1936, China ordered a total of 315,000 of the M35 Stahlhelm, and also large numbers of Gewehr 88, 98 rifles and the C96 Broomhandle Mauser. China also imported other military hardware, such as a small number of Henschel, Junkers, Heinkel and Messerschmitt aircraft, some of them to be assembled in China, and Rheinmetall and Krupp howitzers, anti-tank and mountain guns, such as the PaK 37mm, as well as AFVs such as the Panzer I.

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Chinese copy of MP18 SMG

Postby Dave Bender » 13 Jul 2010 03:31

http://gk43forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5433
A bunch of information and pictures at this link.

Image

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Re: [Question] MG42 and StG44 in China?

Postby HC8604 » 13 Jul 2010 05:19

Well, it is wikipedia...

It doesn't state an exact source either. Same with the MG34 article, no direct source, just a statement.

I believe the MP18 as there are soldiers using them in pictures, but the MG34 I have yet to see one...

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MG34 I have yet to see one

Postby Dave Bender » 13 Jul 2010 14:05

Hmmm. There are numerous web sites which mention a Chinese copy of the MG34. They could all be quoting the same incorrect information, which isn't uncommon among military history writers. However the rumor had to come from somewhere.

There is a picture on the web of a KMT Chinese armored car armed with a MG35. That's one possible explanation. Perhaps a careless historian saw that picture caption and thought they meant MG34, as the MG35 isn't terribly well known.


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