Pre 1927 Hardware

[zoboe]

I tried to reply yesterday but my post did not go through.

The book was "Chinese Warlord Armies: 1911-30" by Osprey. I know it is not very in depth but it was one of the few eBooks I could find on the matter.

I looked at Arming the Chinese at the University library but I could not take it home. Is it worth buying? Keep in mind I am more interested in who used what kind of equipment rather than the politics behind why.

Was that armored car with the KMT markings pre or post 1927?

Google translate butchers Chinese, is there a better translator out there?

Thank you Don, so the thread ends up in the Osprey book, unless we contact the author for the source.
Please note that, things could have been ordered or inquired by Chinese but were not actually sent to the customer.
The underlying politics was indeed more complicated than equipment. The contemporary conflicts in Africa sometimes remind me of the Chinese era of warlords, the war between or among local deputies of foreign powers.

That armored car was post 1927. KMT did not have the ability of heavy weapon building, until 1927 after the "north expedition force" took control of traditional arsenals in Shanghai (Kiang-nan) and Hubei Province (Han-yang). Armored trains and draisines first.

You may browse the whole book (not too thick) first, to see if there is enough interesting information. Probably it is an excellent introduction. To us who have Chinese files for cross-check, of course worth buying.

The electric translators cannot help much on special names in history or geography, and the grammar could be chaotic. If you know other languages, try cross-checking with them. When I did not know much Japanese language but had to understand the key information in Japanese, I tried translation into Chinese, English, German and a bit Russian. If you get to know some Chinese guy on campus who has the knowledge and the hobby, that might be very convenient.
For long term benefit, studying the target language is the most effective way.

[oirob]

Nothing difficult here, as the two armored cars are obviously different. The Chinese one was based on Dodge or Diamond truck bassis, while the Japanese one was based on Osaka or Ishikawajima石川島 truck bassis.

I wouldn't dare to argue about that. I'm sure you know your stuff.
Just let me say, that according to the book “Japanese Armor Vol.1” the car is the japanese Army version and the once in the 2. and 3. Picture are Navy versions.
But probably this is a rumor, as you said.
Nevertheless it’s from the 30s anyway and not relevant for pre-1927 Hardware.
Much more interesting would be information about the use of Wu Peifu's half tracked Citroens.

There have been two French expeditions of the Citroens company using an unarmored version of this car.
One in 1924 to Africa, called CROISIERE NOIRE and one in 1931 to Asia called CROISIERE JAUNE.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2G6kDsObN4
http://www.oto6.fr/6roues/6rouescroisiere.htm

May be reports from the first one convinced Wu Peifu of the usefulness of this vehicle, even in difficult terrain.
(By the way, was Wu Peifu somehow backed by the French in his territory?)

13872-cn-23076-2[1].jpg

UNE-La+Traversée+du+Sahara+1[1].jpg

1924_B2_kegresse[1].jpg

Cheers
Oirob

[oirob]

Ha! - Just came across this:

http://eprints.qut.edu.au/16298/1/Stefa ... Thesis.pdf

Haven’t read it yet, but looks promising.

KEEP ON SEARCHING!

[YC Chen]

Nothing difficult here, as the two armored cars are obviously different. The Chinese one was based on Dodge or Diamond truck bassis, while the Japanese one was based on Osaka or Ishikawajima石川島 truck bassis.

I wouldn't dare to argue about that. I'm sure you know your stuff.
Just let me say, that according to the book “Japanese Armor Vol.1” the car is the japanese Army version and the once in the 2. and 3. Picture are Navy versions.
But probably this is a rumor, as you said.
Nevertheless it’s from the 30s anyway and not relevant for pre-1927 Hardware.
Much more interesting would be information about the use of Wu Peifu's half tracked Citroens.

There have been two French expeditions of the Citroens company using an unarmored version of this car.
One in 1924 to Africa, called CROISIERE NOIRE and one in 1931 to Asia called CROISIERE JAUNE.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2G6kDsObN4
http://www.oto6.fr/6roues/6rouescroisiere.htm

May be reports from the first one convinced Wu Peifu of the usefulness of this vehicle, even in difficult terrain.
(By the way, was Wu Peifu somehow backed by the French in his territory?)

13872-cn-23076-2[1].jpg

UNE-La+Traversée+du+Sahara+1[1].jpg

1924_B2_kegresse[1].jpg

Cheers
Oirob

Good clue! In fact, I have read a Chinese document which indicate that Chekiang(Zhejiang) warlord Lu Yongxiang had a handful of French-built "cross-country cars" which were "very different from ordinary cars, and are able to carry a MG or a small gun, as well as be used as transport vehicles". It's almost certain that these are halftrack Citroens.

It is possible that Lu depolyed these cars in the Jiangsu-Chekiang War in 1924 and his enemy, Jiangsu Warlord Qi Xieyuan(backed by Wu Peifu) would certainly know them. So maybe Wu Peifu thought "The guy in Chekiang deployed the unarmored version so successfully, so why don't I buy some armored ones?"

I know that Lawrence Impey mentioned Citroen and CA1 in his books because I have read some other books which quoted his books for these information. However, I haven't read any of his books(I have a Chinese translation of one of them, but I haven't had time to read it). Can anyone help? I think one of his books was titled "Chinese army as a military power" or something like that and it was first published in English in Tientsin(Tianjin) in about 1924.

[DonMegel]

You guys are great, I really appreciate this discussion even if all I have to offer are questions

Would it be safe to assume the warlords applied armor plate to trucks to create thier own armored cars? If so, what trucks would have been used for this purpose in the 1920s?

Also, what currency did the warlords use to purchase weapons and pay thier soldiers?

[zoboe]

Just let me say, that according to the book “Japanese Armor Vol.1” the car is the japanese Army version and the once in the 2. and 3. Picture are Navy versions.
But probably this is a rumor, as you said.
Nevertheless it’s from the 30s anyway and not relevant for pre-1927 Hardware.

Cheers
Oirob

Ja Oirob. This western rumor made some Japanese (much less knowledgeable and much less diligent than Taki) believe that armored car was made in Japan, and put it in a special issue of <Ground Power> on IJA and IJN AFVs. That book is kind of funny, because many small photos and hand-drawn pictures were on the mailer.fsu.edu website already!

[zoboe]

Ha! - Just came across this:

http://eprints.qut.edu.au/16298/1/Stefa ... Thesis.pdf

Haven’t read it yet, but looks promising.

KEEP ON SEARCHING!

Vielen Dank Oirob!
Für die Fotos an Kegresse auch!
I have seen one photo of the Kegresse expedition arriving in Peking on <Peiyang Pictorial北洋画报>, but the quality is too poor to recoganize any vehicle, so I did not record it by my camera.

For weapon research, the thesis you found is excellent on airplanes, but poor on armor. The author did not even bother to check Panzer Tracts (#1-2 and #13-1), or he did not even know Panzer Tracts perhaps??? As for guns, probably YC Chen is more suitable to judge it.

In the photos discovered, Chinese Sd.Kfz.221 and 222 survived till 1945, and 223 at least in Burma 1942. In the memoir of KMT Panzertruppe, Horch armored cars survived at least till 1947. The confirmed loss in Burma 1942 - one 222 and two 221. They participated in a successful ambush (as part of the Cavalry Regiment of the 5th Army Corps), which was the first combat between Chinese and Japanese in Burma.

All Pz. I Ausf.A (as the 3rd Company, the Tank Batallion of the Armored Regiment) were almost certain to have been lost in the battle of Nanking, but none of the Sd.Kfz.221/222/223 (probably only a few arrived, more to come) took part in that battle. In the memoir and on a vehicle list, the KMT mechanized school in 1938 had a "Krupp light radio tank" that could communicate with airplanes. So probably a Kleiner Panzerbefehlswagen I survived. But unfortunately, not a photo has shown itself yet, still a mystery.

Here is what Germans recommended to Chinese in 1934, in a textbook on military vehicles But unfortunately, KMT did not have the industrial ability to realize this modern design (elements of Sd.Kfz.231 so obvious), while Germans were too busy with their own re-armament, unable to help China build Autoindustrie as promised.

建议中国自制装甲车2.jpg

[zoboe]

You guys are great, I really appreciate this discussion even if all I have to offer are questions

Would it be safe to assume the warlords applied armor plate to trucks to create thier own armored cars? If so, what trucks would have been used for this purpose in the 1920s?

Also, what currency did the warlords use to purchase weapons and pay thier soldiers?

That's what the forum is for, questions and discussions

The only way to "produce" armored cars in China was to apply armor plate to trucks, not only the warlords in 1920s, but also the KMT till 1949. Simply because, without an automobile industry system, the engine and the chassis had to be readily available. Trucks used for this were most probably common American and British brands.
As for currency, the eager warlords would probably pay what the sellers wanted - the seller's currency, gold, silver, coal, the right of mining etc., anything but the local Chinese currency.
To soldiers, only the silver coins were reliable currency (KMT still used that till 1949 to stimulate brave acts; gold bar also OK, just too expensive for low ranks, more for officers). Paper bills always had the risk of intentional depreciation, or totally worthless because the warlord who issued the paper bills was defeated, just like the WW2 Japanese "military hand bills" used on occupied territories.

[Akira Takizawa]

This western rumor made some Japanese (much less knowledgeable and much less diligent than Taki) believe that armored car was made in Japan, and put it in a special issue of <Ground Power> on IJA and IJN AFVs.

The Ground Power book did not state that it was made in Japan, but made locally in China. It supposed that it is an armored car of Manchukuo Army or Manchurian Railway Company.

Taki

[oirob]

Would it be safe to assume the warlords applied armor plate to trucks to create thier own armored cars? If so, what trucks would have been used for this purpose in the 1920s?

We've discussed that here, a while ago:
viewtopic.php?f=101&t=181332

YC Chen hase also posted link to a Photo album on Flicker where some 1920s armoured vehicles are displayed.
Do you still have the link, Chen?

[zoboe]

This western rumor made some Japanese (much less knowledgeable and much less diligent than Taki) believe that armored car was made in Japan, and put it in a special issue of <Ground Power> on IJA and IJN AFVs.

The Ground Power book did not state that it was made in Japan, but made locally in China. It supposed that it is an armored car of Manchukuo Army or Manchurian Railway Company.

Taki

Ah oh, sorry Taki, I didn't go back to check the book first and made a hasty accusation, su mi ma sen
But anyway, as the J-Tank article has displayed, Manchukuo armored cars were not anything like this one.

[DonMegel]

I read the parts of that Thesis that applied to my project and did find some good stuff, so thank you very much. My favorite was the mention of Fokker D. VII fighters in China! Wow! That got me excited. It also spoke of civilian aircraft being turned into military aircraft and gave a few examples.

Another nugget I gleamed was that, apparently, almost every type of small arm used in WWI ended up in China. Does this sound reasonable to you? Also, the author mentioned that the average soldier had weaponry on par with the American Civil War. This would be percussion cap rifles, trending toward single shot breach loaders. I know some Chinese were armed with flint lock weapons but were the majority armed with such crude instruments?

Was disappointed by the armor discussion but it would seem to be even more rare than I thought. How about cavalry? I read they were employed in the classical sense with charges and flanking maneuvers.

[YC Chen]

Would it be safe to assume the warlords applied armor plate to trucks to create thier own armored cars? If so, what trucks would have been used for this purpose in the 1920s?

We've discussed that here, a while ago:
viewtopic.php?f=101&t=181332

YC Chen hase also posted link to a Photo album on Flicker where some 1920s armoured vehicles are displayed.
Do you still have the link, Chen?

The link is here, still works: http://www.flickr.com/photos/33031853@N05/
The armored train photos are great, there's also a photo of one of Zhang Zongchang's improvised armored car and a mysterious tank.

[YC Chen]

Also, to what extent had American firearms found there way into China prior to 1927? I know we supplied the Chinese during the 30s but what about before?

...some original Thompson M1921 submachine guns of course. Later Chinese copy versions as well as German MP18 Bergmann submachine gun copies.

viewtopic.php?f=101&t=163782

(Sun yat sen's bodyguards)

vlcsnap-2012-01-26-14h04m25s54.jpg

By the way, here some images of Zhang Zuolins (or Chang Tso-Lins) airforce in 1924:

vlcsnap-2010-07-27-14h08m08s212.jpg

vlcsnap-2010-07-27-14h00m23s53.jpg

The aircraft shown in the pictures are Breguet 14 and Schreck F.B.A. , both of them were used extensively by Fengtian clique in 1920s, some were also given to Zhang Zongchang.

A good Chinese article on Schreck F.B.A. :http://cwlam2000.0catch.com/caf12.htm

[YC Chen]

I read the parts of that Thesis that applied to my project and did find some good stuff, so thank you very much. My favorite was the mention of Fokker D. VII fighters in China! Wow! That got me excited. It also spoke of civilian aircraft being turned into military aircraft and gave a few examples.

Another nugget I gleamed was that, apparently, almost every type of small arm used in WWI ended up in China. Does this sound reasonable to you? Also, the author mentioned that the average soldier had weaponry on par with the American Civil War. This would be percussion cap rifles, trending toward single shot breach loaders. I know some Chinese were armed with flint lock weapons but were the majority armed with such crude instruments?

Was disappointed by the armor discussion but it would seem to be even more rare than I thought. How about cavalry? I read they were employed in the classical sense with charges and flanking maneuvers.

"almost every type of small arm used in WWI ended up in China. "I'm not an expert on small arms but I think this is true!

"Also, the author mentioned that the average soldier had weaponry on par with the American Civil War. " This is not always the case. Percussion cap rifles were often used by "Min Tuan"(something like a paramilitary organization whose main purpose is to fight bandits) and bandits, and they frequently found their way into the armies of some smaller and poorer warlords. But big warlords seldom use them.

I know very little about cavalary, but I know that Feng Yuxiang has cavalary that was trained by Soviet advisors. In fact, most warlords had cavalary in 1920s.