Chinese 20cm Turreted coastal gun in 1938?

[YC Chen]

Hello,

Just saw this list of coastal guns in Madang Battaries from a book on the battle of Wuhan in 1938.

The fist and second category of the list shows some kind of "twin 20cm cannons" which were L/50 and were mounted in two-gun turrets "with thick armor, wireless receiver and other accessories". The Madang fortress had two of this kind of turrets, that was four guns in total.

Never heard about this kind of large turreted coastal guns used by China before. A guess is that this might be the main guns of crusier "Hai Chi" but other sources say that she retained her 8in main guns when she was sunk as a blockade in Jiangyin, because the Chinese navy had run out of the ammunition. And the 8in main guns of Hai Chi also don't fit the discription of the turrets.

Any ideas?

[Eugen Pinak]

Very strange data. L/50 20-cm guns mean new type of guns from 1920th at least. As neither guns nor turrets were produced in China, they had to be bought abroad - and I doubt, that China had money for such luxury equipment of one of its' fortresses.

[Jerry Asher]

Hi Eugen: can you translate a bit more for me? I have the shore batteries being engaged from June 22 on with the Kasasagi being hit and damaged on the 23rd or 24th and a decision to forego the river advance until an infantry unit could work its way to the rear of the guns.
Also many if not most of the guns were only installed after August 12th, 1937 when they were taken from the ships scuttled. I think in another citation that seventy guns in all, including 20mm AA were postitioned. German advisors talked of river fortifications but I doubt how seriously that can be taken. There is a report of aGerman adviser not being well received by a Chineses CO at Jiangyin, and a Russian artillery adviser who was not that impressed either, (Book--Along Alein Roads).

[nuyt]

Sounds like Japanese guns:
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNJAP_79-50_3ns.htm

The other 20 cm or 8 inch L50 was made by Vickers.

[YC Chen]

Sounds like Japanese guns:
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNJAP_79-50_3ns.htm

The other 20 cm or 8 inch L50 was made by Vickers.

The question is, how did China laid hands on them?

[Eugen Pinak]

Hi Eugen: can you translate a bit more for me?

Unfortunately, no. I don't understand Chinese, just a couple of hieroglyphs

I have the shore batteries being engaged from June 22 on with the Kasasagi being hit and damaged on the 23rd or 24th and a decision to forego the river advance until an infantry unit could work its way to the rear of the guns.

And I have "Kasasagi" served in China without any damage till November 1939. Do you have confirmation of her damage from Japanese sources?

Also many if not most of the guns were only installed after August 12th, 1937 when they were taken from the ships scuttled. I think in another citation that seventy guns in all, including 20mm AA were postitioned.

70 guns - that's two or three Chinese navies combined

[Jerry Asher]

Hi Eugene: I believe damage to Kasasagi is from Senshi Shensho. I think the 70 guns is not so far fetched, when you include the small anti aircraft weaponry. That's what so intrigued me from your original posting--how heavy your weaponry was. I'll get back to you tonight, must get to work now.

[Eugen Pinak]

I believe damage to Kasasagi is from Senshi Shensho.

Maybe damage was very small. Because both torpedo boats, damaged by mines ("Kiri" and "Sagi"), went to Japan for repairs.

I think the 70 guns is not so far fetched, when you include the small anti aircraft weaponry.

If small guns are counted - then yes, 70 guns seem realistic number.

That's what so intrigued me from your original posting--how heavy your weaponry was.

What "mine weaponry"?

[cstunts]

Hello,

But there were Krupp 21cm guns in their [i.e., the Chinese] inventory at the time of the Russo-Japanese War.

[Jerry Asher]

Hi YChen Cstunts, Nyut and Eugene: I think we could all use a translation of the posted page. Senshi Shensho is good source for river obstructions, has a diagram etc, but less so for shore installations. I am always worried about translations of Japanese names, particularly when you have Kasasagi and Kasaragi from kanji. However I stick with what I have. The Chinese report over 2,000 mines as being used between June and December 1938--didn't realize that Kiri and Saga went to Japan for repairs--sort of assumed all repairs done at Shanghai--do you have dates sailed, etc? Really skeptical, of Japanese guns being transferred. The halo period was quiet short and almost nothing happening in China at that time would justifiy placing such a treasure west of Nanjing. Just seems like an odd use of a resource. Have a great day--I'm not great with computers, anyone want to talk?

[Eugen Pinak]

didn't realize that Kiri and Saga went to Japan for repairs--sort of assumed all repairs done at Shanghai--do you have dates sailed, etc?

"Kari" arrived Sasebo on 26 August 1938.
"Sagi" was mined 7 September 1938, arrived Kure 15 December 1938.

BTW, I've found data on "Kasasagi" damage off Madang (exactly at 牌山璣娘娘廟砲台) on 24 June 1938 at "Warship Photofile" on IJN TBs and Kaibokans. "Kasasagi" was hit by 6 5-cm shells. But damage was not very serious, as by November 1938 she was definitely operational again.

So it really brings question, where exactly those ships were repaired? Maybe your data about Shanghai is correct, after all (those ships had to be patched somewhere in China before going to Japan). Or maybe TROMS just missing some data