"Horthy kept Hungary out of the war until the Soviet attack"

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cavszabo
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Re: "Horthy kept Hungary out of the war until the Soviet att

Postby cavszabo » 13 Nov 2012 15:33

Sid Guttridge wrote:Hi
Personally, it seems perfectly plausible that the attack on Kassa was done by the USSR, but this does not make it a strong casus belli.

It was clear that on 22 June the USSR had been attacked massively along a thousand mile front and by 26 June its forces had already been pushed back from opposite the new Hungarian border in Ruthenia. It was therefore highly unlikely that the USSR had any immediate intentions to attack Hungary, even if it had so wished. There was certainly no advantage to it.

It seems rather more likely that Kassa was attacked in mistake for nearby Slovak territory, as Slovakia had just declared war on the USSR. Such confusion is even more plausible given that Kassa had been in Slovakia until only two years before.

It strikes me that, had Hungary really been intent on avoiding war, it could easily have put the two pinprick air raids down to the fog of war. However, it appears that early German successes and the prior participation of rival Romania and Slovakia led Hungary to use them as an excuse to join in and claim its share of the expected spoils, or at the very least prevent Romania displacing Hungary as Germany's favoured ally in the region.

Sid.

You're right. However, the Treaty of Trianon had already done its work. The peoples who had lived more or less in peace until 1918, now looked at each other as enemies. The Hungarians were scared that if they did not show some involvement, however minimal, in the war effort, Germany would give more lands to the Successor States of Hungary. This was a very real possibility at the time.

Cheers,
Chris

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Re: "Horthy kept Hungary out of the war until the Soviet att

Postby cavszabo » 13 Nov 2012 15:42

Sid Guttridge wrote:Hi
You seem to completely disregard ethnicity as a factor or the right of non-Magyar peoples to self determination. It seems to be your case that, once a territory populated by others had been part of a Hungarian state, it must always remain so. I presume you feel that, on these grounds, Croatia and Croatians have no right to an independent existence at all? ...

What do you mean by the following, "I'm glad you aren't the one deciding these things. I prefer to leave it up to the local people, something neither the Nazis, or Soviets, or Western Allies were ever prepared to do. Could you tell me why, perhaps, in the name of democracy and all that?" I was not advocating the expulsion of Hungarians from neighbouring countries, I was merely pointing out that they were lucky not to be expelled at the same time as the Sudeten Germans. I guess that the USSR was opposed to such a drastic outcome, because I doubt the Romanians, Slovaks or Serbs felt any particular sense of obligation to their recently disloyal Hungarian minorities.

It seems that you are suggesting it is alright for Hungary to rule unwilling minorities, but not right for them to rule unwilling Magyar minorities!

Cheers

Sid.

That is a rather one-sided view, which I would naturally expect from an English-speaker justifying the Paris Peace Treaties. No, of course not. However, I would like to see the Western powers, who are so big on democracy, practicing what they preach and using referenda and plebiscites. You also seem to feel that all ethnic groups (or "ethnicities -- OUCH") will automatically vote for a similar nation. In other words all ethnic Romanians will want to joint Romania, all ethnic Germans will want to go to Germany etc. But the facts prove otherwise. A very large meeting of ethnic Romanians called for Transylvania to have autonomy, but was naturally ignored by the Allies. Also, in 1922, when the only Plebiscite was held, the one in and around Sopron, it voted for Hungary. However, contrary to what you seem to think, the majority of people who voted to rejoin Hungary were ethnic Germans and Croats.
Also, if you look at todays Moldova, they prefer not to re-join Romania, although they speak the same language etc.
Sadly, the Allies had an oversimplified view of things!

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Re: "Horthy kept Hungary out of the war until the Soviet att

Postby cavszabo » 13 Nov 2012 15:52

Hi,
Just a quick note. I am not well at the moment, and might take a while to reply to your responses.

Thanks!
Chris

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Re: "Horthy kept Hungary out of the war until the Soviet att

Postby CB1 » 14 Nov 2012 03:33

Hi Sid,

the right of non-Magyar peoples to self determination


I am not very fond of flaming but that annoyed me a bit. As you seem to be fascinated by the Trianon Treaty please do explain these to me:

1) The case of the city that was called by its indigenious population Pressburg/Pozsony/Presporok, later to be renamed Wilsonovo Mesto and even later Bratislava.

Well, this city had the following ethnic breakdown in 1910:
German 32,790
Hungarian 31,705
Slovak 11,673
Czech 1,242

So, there was no clear majority. Assuming that your stance is that non-Magyars enjoy priority let me ask you this question: who should decide the fate of this city; 33 thousand Germans or 13 thousand Czechoslovaks? The Czechoslovaks? All in the name of non-Magyar self determination, I see.

2) How should a country be called with an ethnic breakdown like this (1921):
Czech 50.8%
German 23.4%
Slovak 14.7%
Hungarian 5.6%
Ruthen 3.4%
Other 2.1%

Czechoslovakia? Why would you give 15% Slovaks the right you deny to 23% Germans?

My Dear Sid,
You seem to completely disregard ethnicity as a factor


I certainly would not call it a nation state. In fact it does look pretty similar to this one (Hungary without Croatia in 1910)
Hungarian 54.5%
Rumanian 16.0%
Slovak 10.7%
German 10.4%
Ruthen 2.3%
Serb 2.5%
Croatian 1.1%
Other 2.2%

3) Why would a person - what person? a Flaming Torch, a Shining Star on the Horizon of Humanity - David Lloyd George, who was so annoyed that Britain insisted on reserving the right, as he put it, to bomb niggers, take the pains to break up a multi-ethnic state (Hungary) and create another one (Czechoslovakia)? It puzzles me even more, when I look at an ethnic map. Here is one for your convenience:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Czechoslovakia_1930_linguistic_map_-_created_2008-10-30.svg

Most Hungarians living in the South right on the border of Hungary, most Germans living in the North-West right on the border of Austria & Germany, Poles living on the border of Poland, Ruthenes living on the border of the Ukraine. If you took national self determination seriously for a second - just one silly second - where would you draw the borders of Czechoslovakia? The same as it was done in Paris?

Well, Sid
It seems to be your case that, once a territory populated by others had been part of a Czech* state, it must always remain so.

and
It seems that you are suggesting it is alright for any country to rule an unwilling Hungarian minority, but not right for Hungary to rule Magyars!*

*Some necessary corrections made.

Ah, and I almost forgot the most important factor: the non-Magyar self determiantion of Germans, Poles, Ruthenes.

Ah, one more thing: if you care to read Margaret Macmillan's book (Peacemakers), there is a passage in it about Stephen Bonsal meeting Andrej Hlinka in Paris. Based on that it would occur to you one more non-Magyar thus important self determination: the self determination of Slovaks.

Bye,
Krisz

PS: I am aware that the 1910 figures are debated by some but what do you know, so are the 1921 ones.

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Re: "Horthy kept Hungary out of the war until the Soviet att

Postby KACKO » 14 Nov 2012 20:57

CB1 wrote:2) How should a country be called with an ethnic breakdown like this (1921):
Czech 50.8%
German 23.4%
Slovak 14.7%
Hungarian 5.6%
Ruthen 3.4%
Other 2.1%

Czechoslovakia? Why would you give 15% Slovaks the right you deny to 23% Germans?

3) Why would a person - what person? a Flaming Torch, a Shining Star on the Horizon of Humanity - David Lloyd George, who was so annoyed that Britain insisted on reserving the right, as he put it, to bomb niggers, take the pains to break up a multi-ethnic state (Hungary) and create another one (Czechoslovakia)? It puzzles me even more, when I look at an ethnic map. Here is one for your convenience:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Czechoslovakia_1930_linguistic_map_-_created_2008-10-30.svg
PS: I am aware that the 1910 figures are debated by some but what do you know, so are the 1921 ones.

Hi Krisz,

As to point 2. Numbers are more or less right. But... Original ideal was creating state which would be called Czechoslovakia with 3 autonomous parts. Czech, Slovak and Ruthen. Parts of these autonomy upon which Slovak and Ruthens agreed in separate agreements with Czech representatives in USA was kept. Education in National languages etc. Other were not kept. For example huge transfers of Czech officials to Slovakia and Ruthenia, meanwhile there was huge unemployment. But there was same issue after incorporation of territories gained in November 1938 into Hungary. Most officials were from Hungary proper and local Hungarians were put on lower position then they held during Czechoslovakia. Actually, one Hungarian author is mentioning something like: “Minden drága, jobb volt Prága" ;)
As we know, in October 1938 Slovakia and November Ruthenia were finally granted total autonomy (as agreed upon in 1918)
At the end, Slovakia and Ruthens separated in March 1939. Slovakia declared independence on March 14 and Ruthenia March 15 1939.
Also you are forgetting Jews on your list of nationalities from Czechoslovakia, they were granted this status. Of course there was political reason behind that as you know. ;)
So basically breakdown by nationality should be for:
Czech and Moravian Lands
Slovakia
Ruthenia

Here are numbers for Slovakia 1930:
Total 3 329 793
Slovaks 2 250 616
Czechs 121 696
Russians 95 783 (Russians, Ukrainians, Ruthens)
German 156 279
Hungarian 585 434
Jewish 72 678
Polish 7 023
Romanians 427
Others 39 857


As to the rights of Slovaks and Germans in interwar Czechoslovakia. What rights are you talking about? They had same rights. Schools in their own languages, right to represent and vote. There were couple of German ministers in Czechoslovak government in 20-ties and 30-ties.
Actually Germans and Slovaks had one think common. Feeling they are oppressed by Czechs.

As to 3. Map is pretty good, but I notices yellow for Polish on border region of Poland and Slovakia which is highly discussed. My family is from there, actually from Polish side. And they are Slovaks.

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Re: "Horthy kept Hungary out of the war until the Soviet att

Postby CB1 » 14 Nov 2012 21:48

Hi Peter,

As to the rights of Slovaks and Germans in interwar Czechoslovakia. What rights are you talking about?


I am talking about a plebiscite sometime around 1919-20 about who wants to live in Czechoslovakia. If we are talking about national self determination then Germans in the Sudetenland should be asked this question. If they opt for Germany then the territory they occupy should be ceded to Germany. The same holds for Hungarians. If they opt for Hungary, then the territory we call now Slovakia should be separated: Slovakia in the North and Felvidék in the South.

Bye,
Krisz

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Re: "Horthy kept Hungary out of the war until the Soviet att

Postby KACKO » 15 Nov 2012 16:05

CB1 wrote:Hi Peter,

As to the rights of Slovaks and Germans in interwar Czechoslovakia. What rights are you talking about?


I am talking about a plebiscite sometime around 1919-20 about who wants to live in Czechoslovakia. If we are talking about national self determination then Germans in the Sudetenland should be asked this question. If they opt for Germany then the territory they occupy should be ceded to Germany. The same holds for Hungarians. If they opt for Hungary, then the territory we call now Slovakia should be separated: Slovakia in the North and Felvidék in the South.

Bye,
Krisz

Hi Krisz,

you see, small misunderstanding here. I was thinking more about the rights of nationalities in Czechoslovakia and Austro-Hungary or Hungary.
But sure, you are right here. Partially. Basically Slovaks were denied at the time self-determinations right also, as promises of full autonomy were not fulfilled.
As to others. Well, I can agree with you here. From other side, at the time Nationalism was at the top. So Czech and Slovak politicians went along the line, that opression and Hungarization in last 75 years was pretty successful. And it was, as all Slovak High Schools were closed, lower schools had limited time of education in ones mother language etc, plenty of young Slovak men, if attending Hungarian schools and universities had pretty bright carrier. As example of cardinal, Primas of Hungary Jan Cernoch or Czernoch Janosz is showing. So general feeling at the time was that unjustice has to be corrected and people had to be given time to reslovakize. ;) As you see, it was time of action and reaction which unfortunately in bigger or smaller degree is going on and on.
On the other side there was question of Slovaks in Hungary. In 1920 there was according to Slovak demographers 500 to 550 000 Slovaks in Hungary. According to Hungarian census 399 000 people spoke Slovak. In 1945-46 over 70 000 opted for exchange. According to Hungarian census 2001 over 50 000 Hungarians can speak Slovak and from them something around 20 000 opted in that census for Slovak nationality. Of course, I am aware there are other numbers for Slovaks in Hungary, especially in interwar era.
So would they be granted right for self determination either? ;)
As I do understand, war era Slovak republic in relation to minorities went different way. Any time Budapest government took some rights from Slovaks there (either in Felvidek, Hungary proper or Banat), Bratislava government threaten to do the same. When one of Slovak political leader in Hungary was drafted and sent to army, and intervention of Slovak ambassador didn't help, Esterhazy got his calling card (or somebody else?).

At the end, even when Czechoslovak republic was not perfect and as history showed twice, couldn't last through crisis, it was improvement for some nationalities on educational and cultural side. For Germans and Hungarians, well I am not sure about numbers of schools and High Schools for Hungarians, but Germans had it very good here and I do understand, there is different feelings. But yes, it was a bit improved version of A-H. ;)

Bye

Peter

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cavszabo
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Re: "Horthy kept Hungary out of the war until the Soviet att

Postby cavszabo » 21 Nov 2012 17:03

Sid Guttridge wrote:Hi
You seem to completely disregard ethnicity as a factor or the right of non-Magyar peoples to self determination. It seems to be your case that, once a territory populated by others had been part of a Hungarian state, it must always remain so. I presume you feel that, on these grounds, Croatia and Croatians have no right to an independent existence at all?

Cheers

Sid.

Okay, I answered this once. What happened?
The answer is of course it's not so. We were not discussing minorities, we were discussing Horthy and his role in the war, which has been twisted by the Communists and their influence in the Western media is vast.
Croatia was never part of Hungary, it was ruled by the Croatian legislature and had a joint king with Hungary. This goes back to the 13th Century. As far as the right of people to self-determination what matters is the will of the people. As the Allies did not allow plebiscites, we will never know what they wanted. It is not automatic that ethnic groups want to join a certain country!!
Cheers,
Chris

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Re: "Horthy kept Hungary out of the war until the Soviet att

Postby CB1 » 23 Nov 2012 21:13

As the Allies did not allow plebiscites, we will never know what they wanted.


Hi,

You surely meant Entente. We will never know what they wanted before WW1, we do not even know if they preferred this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_of_Greater_Austria
to a SHS state.

We know however how the major representative of Croatia during the peace talks felt later:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ante_Trumbi%C4%87

Bye,
Krisz

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KACKO
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Re: "Horthy kept Hungary out of the war until the Soviet att

Postby KACKO » 24 Nov 2012 07:20

CB1 wrote:
As the Allies did not allow plebiscites, we will never know what they wanted.


Hi,

You surely meant Entente. We will never know what they wanted before WW1, we do not even know if they preferred this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_of_Greater_Austria
to a SHS state.

We know however how the major representative of Croatia during the peace talks felt later:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ante_Trumbi%C4%87

Bye,
Krisz

Well, Greater Austria was interesting idea and very probably would be accepted by Slovaks. Milan Hodza, later strong supporter of Czechoslovakia was proponent of federalization of Hungarian kingdom at the time of his cooperation with Franz Ferdinand. But would Hungarian elites took it? They didn't even allow Slovak High Schools and were closing Slovak elementary schools one after another.

As to Trumbic. Hlinka had similar fate. Even as supporter of Czechoslovakia, he wanted autonomy for Slovakia and was arrested shortly for attending peace conference in Paris without proper papers. But he also said: 1000 year long marriage with Hungarians was not succesful now is time for divorce. Well, interesting opinion for Catholic priest.


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