This is an apolitical forum for discussions on the Axis nations, as well as the First and Second World Wars in general hosted by Marcus Wendel's Axis History Factbook in cooperation with Michael Miller's Axis Biographical Research and Christoph Awender's WW2 day by day.
Why the intense resistance to the idea that, under this debate's hypothesis, the S.U. would not only NOT have "won by itself", but would lose?
I examined the hypothesis from all sides and concluded that, under its parameters, the S.U. would not stand a hope in Hell because of the great advantage that the particular hypothesis would afford to the Axis.
Yes, but it's not like this bloke's goons got stuffed for a loss at the border - see Benito, M. On the contrary, nazis overran a significant fraction of USSR's manpower, industrial, and agro base. So it' only fair to ask what would happen if the axis has, say 50% more planes?
For Terry: Why not tell us all of ANY "advantage" this hypothesis would offer the S.U.?
Why do you persist in assuming that the Axis would not be able to prepare for winter?
I made a point to not in my analysis that the Axis could move with deliberation, be able to establish a "winter line" and hold it.
What "large numbers of tanks they are ill-equipped to deal with" will they meet?
These "new production centre far to the east" will be fine until the He-177's get to them.
Then? Dust. Britain could jump back in at any time but, since it is NOT on the Continent, it will only be able to send supplies.
The overwhelming amount of Lend-Lease came from the U.S., which would be busy with Japan.
But, wear your red underwear as you wish.
None so blind as who REFUSE to see.
Kilgore Trout wrote:in my analysis, the Axis will have AS A MINMUM at least an additional 600 tanks of its own
Michael Kenny wrote:Kilgore Trout wrote:in my analysis, the Axis will have AS A MINMUM at least an additional 600 tanks of its own
And a perfect example of how you let your rabid anti-Soviet bias run away with you.
By July 1941 the total of German tanks sent to NA was 339.
Pz I =25
Pz II =94
Pz III = 172
Pz IV = 48
German tank losses:
1941 = 2813
1942 = 2952.
So you see you 'extra' numbers were a mere drop in the ocean and given the rate at which the Soviets were destroying them would not survive for long.
I realise dragging facts into your dream world is cheating and I apologise for my error!
Kilgore Trout wrote:The question reads "could the S.U have won by itself" in the given hypothesis. I have NO "oppostion" to the hypothsesis at all. I examined the hypothesis from all sides and concluded that, under its parameters, the S.U. would not stand a hope in Hell because of the great advantage that the particular hypothesis would afford to the Axis. I do not "refuse to use" any "available Soviet figures" (which are?). I merely state the truth: the "surprise" claim made by S.U. officers and authors was, is, and ever shall be a double-load of sefl-serving rubbish.
[And how many were sent to NA from July to December 41??
Politician01 wrote:how many aircraft were sent to NA in 1941 - so you have numbers for this as well?
Politician01 wrote:Considering that the Soviets had between 1500 and 1700 front line tanks left in Early December 1941 - 300 or 500 additional German tanks could have made a significant change.
Politician01 wrote:The kill ratio in 1941 was 7:1 - 300 extra German tanks would theoretically mean an extra 2100 destroyed Soviet tanks - thus by December 1941 the USSR would have no front line tanks at all to defend Moscow.
BDV wrote:The OstFront "WhIf Germany did this or the other" are a necessity because that's the side that had some slack. The bolshevik side went all in: Всё для фронта! Всё для победы!- "Everything for the Front, Everything for the Victory!". Simplistically, after throwing the Far East units into the battle in November, the Soviet side had nothing left.
Orwell1984 wrote:Here's an analysis of the 'myth' of the Far Eastern units and the defence of Moscow which illustrates the resilience of the Soviet Army located in the West.
http://operationbarbarossa.net/Myth-Bus ... ters3.html
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