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Italy stays neutral

Discussions on alternate history, including events up to 20 years before today.

Re: Italy stays neutral

Postby phylo_roadking on 14 Sep 2012 19:26

Again I ask you if Hitler did not have this meeting and postpone Barbarossa on this day when did he do it?


At THIS point in the discussion it would be best to avoid obviously attempting to move the conversation away from your excreble referencing, don't you think? :roll: :roll: :roll:

Keitel was of course present also when Hitler postponed Barbarossa until June 22nd on the 30th of March.


Keitel's OWN memoir for the 30th of March, reproduced several times now on this thread...which YOU produced as a source - DOES NOT MENTION THIS.

I interjected that our eastern front deadline could not be postponed,
as troop movements were already proceeding according to our planned
maximum railway-capacity programme and we could not reduce that
programme to any further extent; Field-Marshal List’s army was too weak
to pit against Yugoslavia, and we could not rely on the Hungarians. That,
rejoined Hitler, was the very reason why he had called in Brauchitsch and
Halder; some solution would have to be found. Now he intended to make
a clean sweep in the Balkans – it was time people got to know him better.
Serbia had always been a State prone to Putsche, so he was going to clean her
up; and so he stormed on – he was, one might say, properly under way.

You realise from the above Hitler decided to attack Yugoslavia and Greece and postpone Barbarossa right?


What you're doing is MAKING AN ASSUMPTION.

The passage ONLY says that Hitler said on that "some solution would have to be found"- you cannot wish something into existence. As of that date it ONLY means that "some solution would have to be found".

Neither in the rest of that paragraph OR the next - the only parts of YOUR reference dealing with the events in late March - is there any mention of Barbarossa being postponed or being ordered to be postponed.

No matter how hard you wish.
"Charming's a special town - not many folks take to it. I like to think the town chooses its occupants. Right ones stay, wrong ones...disappear."

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Re: Italy stays neutral

Postby Buchan on 14 Sep 2012 19:49

phylo_roadking wrote:
Again I ask you if Hitler did not have this meeting and postpone Barbarossa on this day when did he do it?


At THIS point in the discussion it would be best to avoid obviously attempting to move the conversation away from your excreble referencing, don't you think? :roll: :roll: :roll:

Keitel was of course present also when Hitler postponed Barbarossa until June 22nd on the 30th of March.


Keitel's OWN memoir for the 30th of March, reproduced several times now on this thread...which YOU produced as a source - DOES NOT MENTION THIS.

I interjected that our eastern front deadline could not be postponed,
as troop movements were already proceeding according to our planned
maximum railway-capacity programme and we could not reduce that
programme to any further extent; Field-Marshal List’s army was too weak
to pit against Yugoslavia, and we could not rely on the Hungarians. That,
rejoined Hitler, was the very reason why he had called in Brauchitsch and
Halder; some solution would have to be found. Now he intended to make
a clean sweep in the Balkans – it was time people got to know him better.
Serbia had always been a State prone to Putsche, so he was going to clean her
up; and so he stormed on – he was, one might say, properly under way.

You realise from the above Hitler decided to attack Yugoslavia and Greece and postpone Barbarossa right?


What you're doing is MAKING AN ASSUMPTION.

The passage ONLY says that Hitler said on that "some solution would have to be found"- you cannot wish something into existence. As of that date it ONLY means that "some solution would have to be found".

Neither in the rest of that paragraph OR the next - the only parts of YOUR reference dealing with the events in late March - is there any mention of Barbarossa being postponed or being ordered to be postponed.

No matter how hard you wish.


You still ignoring what Hitler said on the 30th?
And you have still now answered the question Again I ask you if Hitler did not have this meeting and postpone Barbarossa on this day when did he do it?

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Re: Italy stays neutral

Postby phylo_roadking on 14 Sep 2012 19:52

And you have still now answered the question Again I ask you if Hitler did not have this meeting and postpone Barbarossa on this day when did he do it?


What's under question here is YOUR production of sources which simply DO NOT SAY WHAT YOU SAY THEY DO.

There's a term for this that the rules of AHF prevent me from using...sadly.
"Charming's a special town - not many folks take to it. I like to think the town chooses its occupants. Right ones stay, wrong ones...disappear."

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Re: Italy stays neutral

Postby Buchan on 14 Sep 2012 20:00

phylo_roadking wrote:
And you have still now answered the question Again I ask you if Hitler did not have this meeting and postpone Barbarossa on this day when did he do it?


What's under question here is YOUR production of sources which simply DO NOT SAY WHAT YOU SAY THEY DO.

There's a term for this that the rules of AHF prevent me from using...sadly.


"War with Russia is inevitable, we can not just sit back and wait that would be disastrous. The attack will begin on June 22nd."
Adolf Hitler March 30 1941

Toland Adolf Hitler

Again if this did not happen in your fantasy land when did Hitler postpone it?
You have claimed he postponed it because of the weather and Romania not being prepared but have to shown one bit of proof only one disproven theory by a subjective author.

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Re: Italy stays neutral

Postby phylo_roadking on 14 Sep 2012 20:35

Again if this did not happen in your fantasy land when did Hitler postpone it?
You have claimed he postponed it because of the weather and Romania not being prepared but have to shown one bit of proof only one disproven theory by a subjective author.


Ahem - we're dealing with YOUR claims and YOUR sources at the moment :P And you're not going to get to wriggle out from underneath them that easily :wink:
"Charming's a special town - not many folks take to it. I like to think the town chooses its occupants. Right ones stay, wrong ones...disappear."

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Re: Italy stays neutral

Postby Buchan on 14 Sep 2012 21:15

phylo_roadking wrote:
Again if this did not happen in your fantasy land when did Hitler postpone it?
You have claimed he postponed it because of the weather and Romania not being prepared but have to shown one bit of proof only one disproven theory by a subjective author.


Ahem - we're dealing with YOUR claims and YOUR sources at the moment :P And you're not going to get to wriggle out from underneath them that easily :wink:


You claimed that Hitler did not postpone Barbarossa because of the Balkan campaign which is counter to historic fact and the word of Hitler, Churchill and Eden.
If you are to make such an outlandish claim you should support it with sources according to site rules.

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Re: Italy stays neutral

Postby Buchan on 14 Sep 2012 21:16

phylo_roadking wrote:
Again if this did not happen in your fantasy land when did Hitler postpone it?
You have claimed he postponed it because of the weather and Romania not being prepared but have to shown one bit of proof only one disproven theory by a subjective author.


Ahem - we're dealing with YOUR claims and YOUR sources at the moment :P And you're not going to get to wriggle out from underneath them that easily :wink:


Do you not wish to deal with this source "War with Russia is inevitable, we can not just sit back and wait that would be disastrous. The attack will begin on June 22nd."
Adolf Hitler March 30 1941

Toland Adolf Hitler

?

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Re: Italy stays neutral

Postby Buchan on 14 Sep 2012 21:17

phylo_roadking wrote:
Again if this did not happen in your fantasy land when did Hitler postpone it?
You have claimed he postponed it because of the weather and Romania not being prepared but have to shown one bit of proof only one disproven theory by a subjective author.


Ahem - we're dealing with YOUR claims and YOUR sources at the moment :P And you're not going to get to wriggle out from underneath them that easily :wink:


Again I ask you if Hitler did not have this meeting and postpone Barbarossa on this day when did he do it?

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Re: Italy stays neutral

Postby phylo_roadking on 14 Sep 2012 21:22

Again I ask you if Hitler did not have this meeting and postpone Barbarossa on this day when did he do it?


Ahem - we're dealing with YOUR claims and YOUR sources at the moment And you're not going to get to wriggle out from underneath them that easily


And that's where we're going to stay until we've dealt with the REST of your sources. Toland next, I think...

Do you not wish to deal with this source "War with Russia is inevitable, we can not just sit back and wait that would be disastrous. The attack will begin on June 22nd."


Remember - according to your earlier claims it has to specifically say that BARBAROSSA was postponed BECAUSE of the Balkans....AND has to contain the full text of Hitler's speech on March 30th...

Not looking good for you so far, then.... :lol:

Time to take a look at ALL of Page 655....not your dubiously-exerpted quotes ;)
"Charming's a special town - not many folks take to it. I like to think the town chooses its occupants. Right ones stay, wrong ones...disappear."

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Re: Italy stays neutral

Postby Buchan on 14 Sep 2012 21:42

phylo_roadking wrote:
Again I ask you if Hitler did not have this meeting and postpone Barbarossa on this day when did he do it?


Ahem - we're dealing with YOUR claims and YOUR sources at the moment And you're not going to get to wriggle out from underneath them that easily


And that's where we're going to stay until we've dealt with the REST of your sources. Toland next, I think...

Do you not wish to deal with this source "War with Russia is inevitable, we can not just sit back and wait that would be disastrous. The attack will begin on June 22nd."


Remember - according to your earlier claims it has to specifically say that BARBAROSSA was postponed BECAUSE of the Balkans....AND has to contain the full text of Hitler's speech on March 30th...

Not looking good for you so far, then.... :lol:

Time to take a look at ALL of Page 655....not your dubiously-exerpted quotes ;)


You still refusing to answer or provide any sources for you strange claims?

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Re: Italy stays neutral

Postby Buchan on 14 Sep 2012 21:43

phylo_roadking wrote:
Again I ask you if Hitler did not have this meeting and postpone Barbarossa on this day when did he do it?


Ahem - we're dealing with YOUR claims and YOUR sources at the moment And you're not going to get to wriggle out from underneath them that easily


And that's where we're going to stay until we've dealt with the REST of your sources. Toland next, I think...

Do you not wish to deal with this source "War with Russia is inevitable, we can not just sit back and wait that would be disastrous. The attack will begin on June 22nd."


Remember - according to your earlier claims it has to specifically say that BARBAROSSA was postponed BECAUSE of the Balkans....AND has to contain the full text of Hitler's speech on March 30th...

Not looking good for you so far, then.... :lol:

Time to take a look at ALL of Page 655....not your dubiously-exerpted quotes ;)


Real straight forward question for you.
Do you believe Hitler held a meeting and postponed Barbarossa on 30 March 1941 yes or no?

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Re: Italy stays neutral

Postby phylo_roadking on 14 Sep 2012 21:48

Do you believe Hitler held a meeting and postponed Barbarossa on 30 March 1941 yes or no?


Judgement reserved until we've seen the REST of your sources....

After all - at least one out of the three doesn't mention him postponing it! :lol: :lol: :lol: The meeting isn't in doubt - but your claim that Hitler stated he postponed BARBAROSSA because of the Balkans at it most asuredly is Too late for your to try and move the goalposts now! :lol: :lol: :lol:

And there's your claim that the three sources contain the full text of his speech that day that remains to be substantiated. One source has betrayed you so far, and counting...


Once again - no matter how you try to wriggle or twist or obfusticate or divert - the issue here now is YOUR claims and YOUR sources.
Last edited by phylo_roadking on 14 Sep 2012 22:18, edited 1 time in total.
"Charming's a special town - not many folks take to it. I like to think the town chooses its occupants. Right ones stay, wrong ones...disappear."

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Re: Italy stays neutral

Postby gurn on 14 Sep 2012 22:12

Does this forum have an "I'm eating popcorn watching this" emoticon? ;)

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Re: Italy stays neutral

Postby Carl Schwamberger on 15 Sep 2012 01:18

We have needed that one a lot lately. :lol:

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Re: Italy stays neutral

Postby waldzee on 15 Sep 2012 04:00

gurn wrote:Does this forum have an "I'm eating popcorn watching this" emoticon? ;)

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Unfortunate its not a really crucial topic like "whaling'or " margarine",to pick two totally random examples.... :P

Welcometo the "WTF IF!" section

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