Deutsche Bucht Command Order of Battle June 1944

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Jim T S
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Re: Deutsche Bucht Command Order of Battle June 1944

#16

Post by Jim T S » 06 Oct 2013, 08:04

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... esland.jpg Okay looks like Omaha or Juno to me
But nothing on the OB hmm

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Baltasar
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Re: Deutsche Bucht Command Order of Battle June 1944

#17

Post by Baltasar » 07 Oct 2013, 11:42

Try find something which does show water depth.

A comparison between high and low tide.
Image

Image


Jim T S
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Re: Deutsche Bucht Command Order of Battle June 1944

#18

Post by Jim T S » 20 May 2015, 06:30

I would really appreciate any title that has any reference on the subject

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Re: Deutsche Bucht Command Order of Battle June 1944

#19

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 22 May 2015, 08:18

Jim T S wrote:I would really appreciate any title that has any reference on the subject
Jim... I'd recommend starting by sifting the German OB on Wiki. The division histories have some clues. My poor memory has a least two divisions, one infantry for certain and one possible armored division (19th ?) were in a days march from the invasion target areas.

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Baltasar
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Re: Deutsche Bucht Command Order of Battle June 1944

#20

Post by Baltasar » 22 May 2015, 19:00

Kriegsmarine forces in the area:

http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gli ... eBucht.htm

Didn't find something on Heer forces, though :-(

Jim T S
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Re: Deutsche Bucht Command Order of Battle June 1944

#21

Post by Jim T S » 10 Jun 2015, 22:16

What do you call a shredded formation?.....tatters?or shreds

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sitalkes
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Re: Deutsche Bucht Command Order of Battle June 1944

#22

Post by sitalkes » 23 Jun 2015, 04:08

A short trip to Berlin seems alluring but one advantage of Normandy was that the Allies were able to slow down the German response by isolating the area from the rest of the world - cutting the railways, destroying rolling stock etc. They couldn't do that in Germany, the Germans would have much less trouble supplying their troops and reinforcing the defenders. I suppose you are implying a deception plan that that keeps the German armies in the West in Normandy and Pas de Calais until the landing and cuts off the railways to them so they can't be transferred to Germany? I suppose that might work but there would still be substantial forces available close to the bridgehead -would they be any good? Or would they be like they were in Market Garden - a mixture of some veteran units, newly created units (e.g. the Tiger II companies), training units, half -trained recruits , coastal defence units, and "stomach" units?

Jim T S
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Re: Deutsche Bucht Command Order of Battle June 1944

#23

Post by Jim T S » 08 Jul 2015, 06:29

there would still be substantial forces available what is the "substance" of these reinforcements ? that is the point of my what if and OB inquiry

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Sheldrake
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Re: Deutsche Bucht Command Order of Battle June 1944

#24

Post by Sheldrake » 08 Jul 2015, 09:43

Baltasar wrote:
Jim T S wrote:Okay since we can't have Cherbourg etc intact. Why not shell the west bank of the Wasser and north bank of the Elbe flat (fields of fire for naval gunnery on the flanks),Land your assault in between and assemble mini mulberries in the estuaries?
I'd suggest you take a look at the landscape and the tides out there. And a very very close look at the depth of water in the area you propose.
1. Any landing on the neck of the Jutland peninsular would risk giving the Germans a narrow bridgehead to defend with one flank anchored on the Baltic and a second on Hamburg.

2. The straight line distance from East Anglia to Hamburg is 360 miles compared to the 120 miles from the south coats to the Normandy coast. Hamburg was the limit of escorted fighter cover for the P47 and P38 and beyond that of the Spitfire. Any landing would not have the support of land based fighters. Battleships would face air attack by air launched missiles and re,mote controlled bombs. Sure the USN could redeploy carriers to the North Sea, but the battle with Admiral King would have been more challenging than the invasion itself.

3. The Germans would have the upper hand in any build up of troops. a) The allies could not implement the same level of disruption to lLower Saxony as they did in France. b) There are fewer opportunities for deception. Once the allies have landed in Germany itself it must be the main threat. c) The Germans could mobilise German patriotic and local resources as they did in September 1944.

Jim T S
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Re: Deutsche Bucht Command Order of Battle June 1944

#25

Post by Jim T S » 25 Jul 2015, 10:00

Fleet air arm had 2 cva's to neutralize the Tirpitz could achieve local air control thinking would have to be outside conventional military lines or you will have to fight attrition grinder in Normandie - Flanders Airborne assault on byte Luftwaffe airdrome(s) to facilitate air support allied sea borne air-power clinches deal when soviets "liberate" Warsaw there is no strategic reserve to respond coherently still haven't seen an OB

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Sheldrake
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Re: Deutsche Bucht Command Order of Battle June 1944

#26

Post by Sheldrake » 25 Jul 2015, 14:38

Jim T S wrote:Fleet air arm had 2 cva's to neutralize the Tirpitz could achieve local air control thinking would have to be outside conventional military lines or you will have to fight attrition grinder in Normandie - Flanders Airborne assault on byte Luftwaffe airdrome(s) to facilitate air support allied sea borne air-power clinches deal when soviets "liberate" Warsaw there is no strategic reserve to respond coherently still haven't seen an OB

1. The allies could muster fleet air arm could muster an air group of C 200 fighter aircraft, much of which would need to be a CAP over the carrier group. The Luftwaffe Reich had 780 single engined and 200 twin engined fighters on 1 June 1944 and a significant air to surface capability with Guided missiles and acoustic mines.

2. There was no way to avoid a attrition grinder, whether in Flanders, Normandy or Germany. A conflict with a well organised mobilised industrial power would involve intense combat. There were no quick wins to be had against Nazi Germany or its WW1 predecessor.

3. Launching Op Overlord in the German Bight would have been one of the few opportunities for the allies to give the Germans an open goal, which is why the Jutland and the German coast were considered and eliminated by the Op Overlord Planners. The Germans had relatively few troops and coastal defences in the area because a) the allies were very unlikely to attack the area. b) Even if the allies did mount an attack German internal communications were sufficiently good to respond more rapidly than the allies could exploit a successful lodgement

Jim T S
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Re: Deutsche Bucht Command Order of Battle June 1944

#27

Post by Jim T S » 01 Aug 2015, 08:02

Read Morgan's Book The range of a spitfire restricted air cover to normandy that is as far as Cossac went

Jim T S
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Re: Deutsche Bucht Command Order of Battle June 1944

#28

Post by Jim T S » 01 Aug 2015, 08:12

Invading northern Germany is the strategy of resigned acceptance and takes the war and all the destruction to Germany "the sacred father land"Stalin would whip Zukov to a lather and destroy what's left in the east in a race to Berlin keeping it secret would be practically impossible

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Re: Deutsche Bucht Command Order of Battle June 1944

#29

Post by Jim T S » 01 Aug 2015, 08:27

The atrocities the committed by the SS would make the western Allied armies fight to the death (Sun Tzu)

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Sheldrake
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Re: Deutsche Bucht Command Order of Battle June 1944

#30

Post by Sheldrake » 01 Aug 2015, 16:55

Jim T S wrote:The atrocities the committed by the SS would make the western Allied armies fight to the death (Sun Tzu)
Except they did not. Compare PW/ Dead ratios for East and West fronts.

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