1942; Japanese Bombers in the Gulf of Mexico

[Phaing]

This nearly did happen, an operation cancelled in the aftermath of Midway.

The IJN came up with a scheme to base Bombers in the Gulf, H8K Emily flying boats refueled somewhere in the Line islands and flying over Mexico to meet up with German U-Boats. Doenitz apparently thought it was a fine idea, and was going to detail a pair of Milch-Cow subs to support them. I don't recall how many Emily would have been there, half a dozen seems to be all that were involved... but they were extremely tough aircraft, more so than the Sunderland.

The plan was to have them spend the night tied up to the U-Boats, refueling and re-arming under the cover of darkness (new moon would have been June 13th and July 13th) and flying daylight bombing raids to targets in the US Gulf Coast states. They wanted to do it over several days, not just one quickie like the Doolittle Raid.
In no way was the US prepared for this, and normal U-Boats were running Amok at the same time in the Gulf and the Caribbean. There was nothing but a few training squadrons to stop them, and the best aircraft the would have run into were P-40s... and not many of them.

But... would it have worked?
Was there anything really worth bombing on the Gulf Coast in mid-1942?
Would the US have reacted in a similar way to what Japan did after the Doolittle raid? That must have been what Japan was hoping for with this little stunt.

[Kingfish]

Was there anything really worth bombing on the Gulf Coast in mid-1942?

Panama Canal

[Takao]

This never even came close to happening.

You seem to have confused several of the Japanese "dream" missions for the H8K Emily; the bombing of Los Angeles, the bombing of the Texas oil fields, and the terror/propaganda bombing of the US East Coast.

The bombing of Los Angeles was to have used 6 H8Ks, and was the one that was "cancelled" after the Battle of Midway. The Bombing of the Texas oil fields was to have used 30 H8Ks, that would refuel for Japanese submarines in the Gulf of California, and then flown off across the US/Mexico to bomb the Texas oil fields. The terror/propaganda bombing of the US East Coast was to have been the one that used the Milch Cows...Although I highly doubt that Doenitz ever saw or heard anything of this mission, no mention of the number of H8Ks committed to this plan was mentioned.

[quote="Phaing"Doenitz apparently thought it was a fine idea, and was going to detail a pair of Milch-Cow subs to support them...The plan was to have them spend the night tied up to the U-Boats, refueling and re-arming under the cover of darkness (new moon would have been June 13th and July 13th) and flying daylight bombing raids to targets in the US Gulf Coast states. They wanted to do it over several days, not just one quickie like the Doolittle Raid. [/quote]
Where did you get this information from? The only place I have seen it mentioned was in "The Second Attack on Pearl Harbor: Operation K and Other Attempts to Bomb American in World War II" by Steven Horn, and that book on supplied a basic outline of the plan. Since Horn mentions that the East Coast attack was cancelled due to a deteriorating war situation, I can only presume that it was to have taken place later in the war, and not in June/July 1942.

Still, the dates are quite fictitious, U-459 entered operational status on April 1, 1942, U-460 entered operational status on June 7, 1942, U-461 entered operational status on June 21, 1942, and U-463 did not become operational until August 1, 1942.

So, a June 13th attack is not even possible, as the second Milch Cow did not have enough time to even get near the US East Coast. But, if he did, I don't believe that he would waste his new supply boats on such a dubious plan, when his U-Boats are being quite successful.

Another question I would have would be...were German bombs compatible with Japanese bomb shackles.

We should also remember that the entire H8K production, by the end of 1942, consisted of 17 aircraft(including pre-production models), and that is just over half of the number that were to have bombed Texas.

My guess is that there is a very slim chance that Japanese could have bombed the Texas oil fields, and no chance for an East Coast H8K bombing campaign.

[thatfloridaguy]

I love hypothetical raids like this I must say, Now as Takao pointed out the U-459 according to uboat.net could have been available but only just. She would have just completed training in the baltic to maybe be ready for a june meeting in the gulf with the japanese. The next boat of this type the U-460 didnt leave training until june 30th of 1942, again according to uboat.net. I could see this possibly being remedied by a normal uboat that was also with the U-459 helping resupply the H8Ks. I am assuming here that japan chose to try to attack texas oil fields with those planes to begin with and like the Doolittle raid it would have been more a propaganda and morale victory. The other 2 things to consider like takao said were japanese bomb racks compatible with german bombs? Also it would be easier for the japanese to fly over the narrowest point of mexico which a quick wiki says is about 120 miles from pacific to the gulf. Would the H8Ks be flying in japanese markings or not? And how would they communicate their location to the germans and vice versa.

[Takao]

The next boat of this type the U-460 didnt leave training until june 30th of 1942, again according to uboat.net.

I use the dates of when they began their first war patrols. The Milch Cows were still considered to be in their Training Flotilla until after the completed their first war patrols and arrived safely at their new bases in France. Thus, the Milch Cows were operational even though they were still technically in Training Flotillas.

Also it would be easier for the japanese to fly over the narrowest point of mexico which a quick wiki says is about 120 miles from pacific to the gulf.

With the H8Ks, they could fly from the Gulf of California, bomb Texas, and return to the Gulf of California to again be refueled. The Milch Cows only enter the picture concerning the bombing of the US East Coast.

[Rob Stuart]

I'd add that the milch cows were designed to supply oil to German uboats. They would need to be refitted to carry aviation fuel. I don't know what exactly the refit would have entailed, but I'm guessing that different pumps would be required, and it would certainly have been necessary to install hoses and nozzles which would be compatible with H6K fuel intakes. You'd also have to arrange for the submarines and the aircraft to be able to communicate with each other directly, which would be a challenge, since Japanese Morse and international Morse were not the same, plus you'd need a common cipher and you'd need at least one person on the sub who could read, write and speak Japanese.

[Takao]

IIRC, the Japanese used both International and Wabun(Kana) morse codes.

[gurn]

By this time didn't the Japanese already have 3 of the I-15 class converted to carry av gas for the second pearl raid of 3 h8k s?

While dropping bombs on the oil field/refineries would do some damage I think the "no kamikazee' edict was still in place, as crashing a few of those big beautiful planes would likely do a lot more damage.

[Takao]

It wasn't that much of a conversion. Take out the E14Y Glen from the hangar and put in 6 avgas tanks and some pumps. I-19 is back to carrying her E14Y Glen by that time. I believe that I-26 was not carrying an aircraft at the time, but I am not certain if she still retained the avgas tanks. I am not certain about I-15.

Can't say I ever heard of a "no kamikaze" edict, since this was well before there were Kamikazes. However, if an H8K is crippled and cannot make the return flight, it would be a good bet that he would fly into something, as this did happen on several occasions prior to the actual advent of Kamikazes in late '44.

[Phaing]

I think that the Japanese carrying capacity in their Subs would have been used up just getting the Emilys across the Pacific and back... assuming there were any coming back, and if none did that would be a severe damper on their "victory" no matter how well things turned out.

The Gulf of California? The waters between Baja and the mainland are pretty narrow, and by June 1st Mexico was a hostile nation. Sure, they have no radar, no modern interceptors and no real ASW ability, but if they spot you the US AAF (among others) will be coming down on you within hours.

I don't think bomb-racks and code books are much of an issue, not if you have months to prepare, and the refueling too... but the sticky part is having crews that are able to work together despite the fact that they will never have a chance to train together. That could be a killer right there.
Once again, we have an Axis operation being planned with no margin for error.

However, Texas Oil? Sure, that would be a target, but the follow-up raids, what would they hit?
Floating around on the Gulf of Mexico for a few nights sure sounds crazy, but it's a huge place, they might get away with it for almost a week.
What other targets near the Gulf of Mexico were worth this kind of effort... besides an indiscriminate spread of incendiaries over a major population center?
That in itself might harm the war effort, when the public demands that every US City have its own Fighter patrols and Flak.

[Takao]

I think that the Japanese carrying capacity in their Subs would have been used up just getting the Emilys across the Pacific and back... assuming there were any coming back, and if none did that would be a severe damper on their "victory" no matter how well things turned out.

Which brings up another problem with the Texas oil field mission I have been pondering...

For the 2nd raid on Pearl, the Japanese used 1 submarine to refuel each aircraft, with 1 as backup. Thus, 30 aircraft would require 30 submarines with 15 as backups(although this could be lessened). The hop from Johnston Atoll to the Gulf of California is almost at the Emily's maximum range, so there is a good possibility that another staging point will be necessary, thus requiring even more submarines. So, right now, for 2 refueling points we are looking at 60 submarines minimum, with the possibility of 90 for a three stop flight. That is a lot of Japanese submarines...

The Gulf of California? The waters between Baja and the mainland are pretty narrow, and by June 1st Mexico was a hostile nation. Sure, they have no radar, no modern interceptors and no real ASW ability, but if they spot you the US AAF (among others) will be coming down on you within hours.

No...There were 3 American radar stations in operation at the time: Station B-92 at Punta Salispuedes, located 22 miles northwest of Ensenada (later moved to Alasitos, 36 miles south of Tiajuana); Station B-94 at Punta San Jacinto, 60 miles south of Ensenada; and Station B-97 at Punta Estrella, south of San Felipe on the Gulf of California. B-97 was operational in April, 1942 with, IIRC, the other becoming operational a short time later...But all three sites were operational by June, 1942. I cant remember the exact dates, but the stations were, later in the year, handed over to Mexico(because of tensions created by having uniformed American soldiers within the borders of Mexico).

However, AFAIK, the Japanese were unaware of these stations.

I don't think bomb-racks and code books are much of an issue, not if you have months to prepare, and the refueling too... but the sticky part is having crews that are able to work together despite the fact that they will never have a chance to train together. That could be a killer right there.
Once again, we have an Axis operation being planned with no margin for error.

The bomb racks may be an issue, I am just not certain.

But the more I read on German-Japanese submarine operations, Communications should not be an issue. The Japanese sent their first I-Boat to German occupied France in mid-42. So, combined operations should not prove to be that big an issue to overcome.

However, Texas Oil? Sure, that would be a target, but the follow-up raids, what would they hit?
Floating around on the Gulf of Mexico for a few nights sure sounds crazy, but it's a huge place, they might get away with it for almost a week.
What other targets near the Gulf of Mexico were worth this kind of effort... besides an indiscriminate spread of incendiaries over a major population center?

There were to be no follow-up raids on the Texas mission.

[Phaing]

For the 2nd raid on Pearl, the Japanese used 1 submarine to refuel each aircraft, with 1 as backup. Thus, 30 aircraft would require 30 submarines

Whoa!
Who said 30?
The Gulf of Mexico operation is what I am talking about, 6-8 aircraft is all. And they won't need to be fully topped off while operating in the Gulf until the trip home.

No...There were 3 American radar stations in operation at the time: Station B-92 at Punta Salispuedes, located 22 miles northwest of Ensenada (later moved to Alasitos, 36 miles south of Tiajuana); Station B-94 at Punta San Jacinto, 60 miles south of Ensenada; and Station B-97 at Punta Estrella, south of San Felipe on the Gulf of California. B-97 was operational in April, 1942 with, IIRC, the other becoming operational a short time later...But all three sites were operational by June, 1942. I cant remember the exact dates, but the stations were, later in the year, handed over to Mexico(because of tensions created by having uniformed American soldiers within the borders of Mexico).

Typical of the spirit of cooperation South of the Border...

Those stations seem placed to cover southern approaches to the US.

However, AFAIK, the Japanese were unaware of these stations.

Most certainly!

The bomb racks may be an issue, I am just not certain.

I really don't think so, looking at the bombs its really just a bolt bent in the shape of a "o".

There were to be no follow-up raids on the Texas mission.

Sure there will. Float on the Gulf at night to refuel and rest up, fly by day. Do you know how many AAF fighters there were around the Gulf at that time? There were a gaggle of P-40s in Texas for training, and there were 9 Squadrons in Florida. No, eight, one was sent to Panama. 6 of those were P-39s, and one Squadron had 9 able to fly and only 4 pilots out of the 12 with more than 12 months flying experience. The others were one Squadron of P-40 and one of P-43.
That ain't much to cover a coast like that.

[gurn]

It wasn't that much of a conversion. Take out the E14Y Glen from the hangar and put in 6 avgas tanks and some pumps. I-19 is back to carrying her E14Y Glen by that time. I believe that I-26 was not carrying an aircraft at the time, but I am not certain if she still retained the avgas tanks. I am not certain about I-15.

Can't say I ever heard of a "no kamikaze" edict, since this was well before there were Kamikazes. However, if an H8K is crippled and cannot make the return flight, it would be a good bet that he would fly into something, as this did happen on several occasions prior to the actual advent of Kamikazes in late '44.

It wasn't that much of a conversion. Take out the E14Y Glen from the hangar and put in 6 avgas tanks and some pumps. I-19 is back to carrying her E14Y Glen by that time. I believe that I-26 was not carrying an aircraft at the time, but I am not certain if she still retained the avgas tanks. I am not certain about I-15.

Can't say I ever heard of a "no kamikaze" edict, since this was well before there were Kamikazes. However, if an H8K is crippled and cannot make the return flight, it would be a good bet that he would fly into something, as this did happen on several occasions prior to the actual advent of Kamikazes in late '44.

Apologies for a late reply, my internet has dubious connectivity at the best of times and unfortunately this is not the best of times.- It took me 20 minutes to get this posted properly, between being bounced off and not connecting.
My limited knowledge is from Robdab's " Dec 7 A Day that Nobody Bombed Panama"
Page 1
"AFAIK there were NO officialy planned Japanese suicide missions in 1941. It is true that the 10 minisub crewmen sent in to attack Pearl Harbor had collected hair and nail clippings for return to their families in Japan in case they didn't return but they did have an escape plan in place for pick-up by IJN submarine after the Oahu attacks. Several IJN pilots at Oahu did indeed crash their warplanes into American targets once they had been hit and there was (according to Prange's book ADWS) a torpedo bomber pilot plan to crash their planes into any anti-torpedo netting discovered but such were NOT sanctioned by higher command. Deliberate suicide missions were not official IJN policy in 1941 and so are not allowable in my ATL scenario. "

I believe there was follow up to this in later pages but that thread is 49 pages long.

[thatfloridaguy]

Again the real clincher here I would have to say is communication between the sub crew and the japanese planes. Im sure someone knows a lot about it because I sure don't haha. Also if they run out of fuel before they find the subs they are screwed..that will be the most crucial point of the operation. Finding the subs and having enough fuel to do so after flying over mexico to do so…otherwise they ditch and the water and the wars over for them.

[Takao]

Again the real clincher here I would have to say is communication between the sub crew and the japanese planes. Im sure someone knows a lot about it because I sure don't haha. Also if they run out of fuel before they find the subs they are screwed..that will be the most crucial point of the operation. Finding the subs and having enough fuel to do so after flying over mexico to do so…otherwise they ditch and the water and the wars over for them.

Despite the fact that German U-boats were not necessary to bomb the Texas oil fields...

Communications would not be that much of an issue. After all, the first "Yanagi mission"(Japanese submarines sent to France) was completed successfully in August, 1942. I-30 was met by German Ju-88s which provided air cover on August 2, 1942. The German aircraft acted as escorts for the I-Boat, and later on August 5, 1942, I-30 was met by German escort vessels which escorted her into the port of Lorient, France.

This is essentially the same thing, but in reverse. However, as you say, the meeting of the aircraft and submarine/s in the open ocean - at a given "Point x" - may probably be a larger hurdle. Still, The H8K Emily does have quite a long range, even with a bomb load, and her long loiter time would give her an additional edge here.