Hitler invades,Sweden,Switzerland,Spain & Portugal

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Von Schadewald
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Hitler invades,Sweden,Switzerland,Spain & Portugal

#1

Post by Von Schadewald » 03 Dec 2016, 23:30

If Hitler delays attacking the USSR, did he within the power to simultaneously invade and conquer Sweden, Switzerland, Spain and Portugal within year?

Or do these 4 countries fight like cats in a bag, forcing Hitler to withdraw?

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T. A. Gardner
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Re: Hitler invades,Sweden,Switzerland,Spain & Portugal

#2

Post by T. A. Gardner » 04 Dec 2016, 00:12

Let's see...

Sweden sabotages its iron mines partially crippling German industry. Finland freaks and wants nothing to do with Germany fearing they're next. They might even cut a deal with Russia to keep Germany out.
Switzerland fights to the bitter end. Losing access to Brown-Boveri steam turbine information means the Germans suffer a massive set back in their jet engine technology and don't develop any really useful ones. They're stuck in the prototype stage due to lack of turbine profiles that they originally purchased from this Swiss company. Swiss resistance to German occupation is endless.
Spain and Portugal fall. Imports of tungsten fall to zero as the Allies occupy overseas Spanish and Portuguese colonial possessions. The Germans now have another thousand miles of coastline to defend...

All-in-all, the Germans lose on this bet, big time.


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Ironmachine
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Re: Hitler invades,Sweden,Switzerland,Spain & Portugal

#3

Post by Ironmachine » 04 Dec 2016, 09:43

T. A. Gardner wrote:Spain and Portugal fall. Imports of tungsten fall to zero as the Allies occupy overseas Spanish and Portuguese colonial possessions.
Spanish wolfram did not come from overseas colonial possesions (do you know what overseas possesions Spain had in WWII?) but from the Peninsula: Galicia, Salamanca, Cáceres... Portugal also produced its wolfram in its peninsular territory. So no, the loss of the overseas Spanish and Portuguese colonial possesions is not going to deprive the Germans of the Spanish and Portuguese wolfram.

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pintere
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Re: Hitler invades,Sweden,Switzerland,Spain & Portugal

#4

Post by pintere » 04 Dec 2016, 21:25

Von Schadewald wrote:If Hitler delays attacking the USSR, did he within the power to simultaneously invade and conquer Sweden, Switzerland, Spain and Portugal within year?

Or do these 4 countries fight like cats in a bag, forcing Hitler to withdraw?
For sure it would've been possible, but would irreparably damage Germany's image abroad and would also probably not be worth the economic gains either.

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BDV
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Re: Hitler invades,Sweden,Switzerland,Spain & Portugal

#5

Post by BDV » 06 Dec 2016, 01:26

Von Schadewald wrote:If Hitler delays attacking the USSR, did he within the power to simultaneously invade and conquer Sweden, Switzerland, Spain and Portugal within year?

Or do these 4 countries fight like cats in a bag, forcing Hitler to withdraw?

What, invading Greece, Holland, and Norway was not disastrous enough?!?? Also, 50 Bf109s here, 100 Ju52s there, 500 PzIIIs between the theaters, soon you're talking real materiel losses. In any case, for political reasons British closed their eyes to Spanish smuggling on behalf of Germany only to 8O ... :o ... :x when books were seen at EndSieg. In any case, 1942-Barbarossa was a non-starter.

Even 1941 should have been nixed, or been done much differently.
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Re: Hitler invades,Sweden,Switzerland,Spain & Portugal

#6

Post by thaddeus_c » 06 Dec 2016, 04:56

Spain had asked for Portugal to be annexed as part of some speculative scenario to join Axis? possible if they had not been in such dire condition after civil war Germany could have backed them invading Portugal (or gaining Portugal's tungsten mine, close to the border?)

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Ironmachine
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Re: Hitler invades,Sweden,Switzerland,Spain & Portugal

#7

Post by Ironmachine » 06 Dec 2016, 09:19

Spain had asked for Portugal to be annexed as part of some speculative scenario to join Axis?
No, but Spain had its own plans to "annex" Portugal with her own means, with just some German air support. And considering the state of the Portuguese military at the time, it would have been relatively easy (just the continental part, of course); the real problem would have been dealing with the consequences from the Allies.
As for the opening question, to simultaneously invade the four countries could have been problematic, but Germany could do it successively, and I think they would have been successful. But as long as Germany is seen as winning the war, Spain and Portugal and Sweden and Switzerland had few options and there are few advantages for Germany in conquering them and a big number of drawbacks. And if Germany begins to suffer defeats, there are even less reasons to do it.

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Re: Hitler invades,Sweden,Switzerland,Spain & Portugal

#8

Post by thaddeus_c » 10 Dec 2016, 17:57

Ironmachine wrote:
Spain had asked for Portugal to be annexed as part of some speculative scenario to join Axis?
No, but Spain had its own plans to "annex" Portugal with her own means, with just some German air support. And considering the state of the Portuguese military at the time, it would have been relatively easy (just the continental part, of course); the real problem would have been dealing with the consequences from the Allies.
As for the opening question, to simultaneously invade the four countries could have been problematic, but Germany could do it successively, and I think they would have been successful.
my understanding Portugal was added to list of territories Spain claimed during Axis talks (the idea being they would always add something to stall.) whatever the plans certainly you are correct that even Spain solo could have overwhelmed them.

overall the problem was Germany would/could never decide conflicts between Vichy regime/Spain/Italy

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Ironmachine
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Re: Hitler invades,Sweden,Switzerland,Spain & Portugal

#9

Post by Ironmachine » 10 Dec 2016, 21:42

my understanding Portugal was added to list of territories Spain claimed during Axis talks (the idea being they would always add something to stall.)
I may be wrong, but I don't remember such a Spanish request. Anyway, there were many "better" claims that could be used to stall the negotiations.

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Down Side to Invading Spain

#10

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 11 Dec 2016, 16:29

1. Cessation of imports; grain, petroleum, chemicals, ect... from North and South America. This simplifies the enforcement of the blockade for the British.

2. Cessation of acesses to London and New York banks by Spain. Those were the primary source of capitol for business growth in Spain.

The blockade craters the Spanish economy, contributing to the social unrest that was simmering under Francos rule. The Germans get blamed.

3. Leftists & other opponents to German occupation increase activity. SOE & later the OSS become active.

4. Allies add a invasion of Iberia to their list of deception ops. As with the other deceptions Hitler goes leaping after shadows and Axis soldiers are busy guarding the longest national coast in Europe. This on top of fighting assorted gurerillia groups to keep the LoC open.

In 1944 Germany abandons Iberia much like it abandoned the Balkans. Spain is embroiled in a second internal war as resurgent leftist groups fight the residual Facist groups.

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Re: Down Side to Invading Spain

#11

Post by thaddeus_c » 11 Dec 2016, 20:39

Carl Schwamberger wrote:1. Cessation of imports; grain, petroleum, chemicals, ect... from North and South America. This simplifies the enforcement of the blockade for the British.

2. Cessation of acesses to London and New York banks by Spain.

3. Leftists & other opponents to German occupation increase activity.

4. Allies add a invasion of Iberia to their list of deception ops. ...Axis soldiers are busy guarding the longest national coast in Europe.
not advocating an invasion of any of the four countries mentioned (from strategic POV) except Switzerland, IMO Germany should have kept collaboration with USSR going to acquire critical materials.

HOWEVER, if the Spanish Civil War had ended a year or two earlier? what are chances of Axis Spain?

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Re: Down Side to Invading Spain

#12

Post by BDV » 12 Dec 2016, 20:38

thaddeus_c wrote:not advocating an invasion of any of the four countries mentioned (from strategic POV) except Switzerland,


Now how would that have helped the Germans? Swiss allowed German shipments of coal to Lombardy and traded with the Germany until April 1945, AFAIK.

They were especially intransigent after Yankee bombing of Schaffhausen (up to and including shooting down trespassing UN aircraft).
Nobody expects the Fallschirm! Our chief weapon is surprise; surprise and fear; fear and surprise. Our 2 weapons are fear and surprise; and ruthless efficiency. Our *3* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency; and almost fanatical devotion

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Don71
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Re: Down Side to Invading Spain

#13

Post by Don71 » 13 Dec 2016, 00:39

BDV wrote:
thaddeus_c wrote:not advocating an invasion of any of the four countries mentioned (from strategic POV) except Switzerland,


Now how would that have helped the Germans? Swiss allowed German shipments of coal to Lombardy and traded with the Germany until April 1945, AFAIK.

They were especially intransigent after Yankee bombing of Schaffhausen (up to and including shooting down trespassing UN aircraft).
I also diidn't see any goal!

If he didn't invade the UdSSR a focal point should be NA, Sicily and Malta, better Crete and Malta at one (same) day and after that as much supply to Rommel as possible to get the 21 Panzer Division and a full readfy 90 inf mot. as soon as possible, also with a Luftflotte at Crete. That would be a strategic move to give the Brits something to chew one.

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Re: Down Side to Invading Spain

#14

Post by thaddeus_c » 13 Dec 2016, 04:31

Don71 wrote:
BDV wrote:
thaddeus_c wrote:not advocating an invasion of any of the four countries mentioned except Switzerland,


Now how would that have helped the Germans?
I also diidn't see any goal!

If he didn't invade the UdSSR a focal point should be NA, Sicily and Malta, better Crete and Malta at one (same) day
Switzerland held as much gold as all other conquered countries combined and likely comparable amounts stashed by private entities.

(and remember the historical haul was over the course of the war)

could have funded a lot of their war effort and kept Soviets paid (with other than munitions.)
Last edited by thaddeus_c on 13 Dec 2016, 05:02, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Down Side to Invading Spain

#15

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 13 Dec 2016, 04:38

thaddeus_c wrote:
Carl Schwamberger wrote:...

HOWEVER, if the Spanish Civil War had ended a year or two earlier? what are chances of Axis Spain?
Slightly better, but still not large. Spain was dependant on critical imports from the western hemisphere. Germany had little of substance to offer in replacement. There were a lot of nuances, like Francos attitude & internal politics, but the bottom line would still be the serious economic effects of losing acess to the New York and London banks, loss of hard cash in payment of exports, loss of grain & petroleum imports...

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