Tiger delay in favor of SP Heavy Artillery

[stg 44]

Every Tiger cost as much to build as four Sturmgeschütz III assault guns

The Tiger was a specialized vehicle, if you lack quantity you have to further invest into quality. The Sturmgeschütz had a different role and cannot be compared to the production cost and time of a Tiger.

Sure, but it was a defensive series of battles...which the StuG excelled in.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiger_I#Combat_history

The 503rd Heavy Panzer Battalion was deployed to the Don Front in the autumn of 1942, but arrived too late to participate in Operation Winter Storm, the attempt to relieve Stalingrad. It was subsequently engaged in heavy defensive fighting in the Rostov-on-Don and adjacent sectors in January and February 1943.

What super solution? It is a minor technical change that would in my view have a larger impact than having Tiger tanks starting in September 1942.

Yes, there is where you go wrong, you think all these 'what ifs' are minor technical changes. Do you have some technical degree that you can share with us?

Pardon, I wasn't aware that was a requirement to post a what if.

By May 1943, the Tiger I was a mature weapon system. Its preposterous that the Germans would suddenly think along the lines you do. Or anyone with a technical background for that matter.

Not yet, that took until 1944. The reason it was more reliable than it was in September was that it wasn't a rushed prototype by May, but also wasn't as reliable as it would be by late 1943 and into 1944. Why is it perpostrous that the Germans would think along the lines of self propelling artillery? They did historically, I'm just suggesting that they reach that conclusion sooner.

[Yoozername]

Why is it preposterous that the Germans would think along the lines of self propelling artillery? They did historically, I'm just suggesting that they reach that conclusion sooner.

They self-propelled division artillery and then only for armored divisions. They did not do so for assets like the k18. So, your suggestion that they reach your 'conclusion' is preposterous.

[Sheldrake]

This would have been a better option for infantry divisions.



Give something like that, or a smaller one for the 10.5cm, to every infantry division to tow their artillery with. Get rid of the horses in artillery regiments. Run the tractors on kerosene maybe. With steel tracks the use of critical materials like rubber is greatly reduced.

There are big limitations with using agricultural caterpillar tractors as gun tractors.
Low speed - Limited range - limited capacity for the detachment and gun stores

A better solution is somehting like this

[stg 44]

Why is it preposterous that the Germans would think along the lines of self propelling artillery? They did historically, I'm just suggesting that they reach that conclusion sooner.

They self-propelled division artillery and then only for armored divisions. They did not do so for assets like the k18. So, your suggestion that they reach your 'conclusion' is preposterous.

http://www.achtungpanzer.com/grille-ser ... series.htm

In 1942, Krupp received order to design the vehicle (waffentrager) using Tiger II‘s components, which was to be part of Grille Series.It was to be able to mount 170mm K 72 L/50 gun – Grille 17. It was ordered that its weight should be 53 to 58 tons. It was also planned to convert Grille 17 into Grille 21 armed with 210mm Mortar 18/1 L/31. Next in the series was Grille 30. It would be armed with Skoda 305mm GrW L/16 mortar. Project of Grille 42 was under the development.It was to be armed with 420mm Grw mortar. In 1943/44, Krupp started production of the prototype, while full-scale production was to start in mid-1945, but the end of the war cancelled any further development.

Grille 17/21/30/42 had its armament mounted on the rail platform inside the hull allowing it to be dismounted anytime. Each variant was also armed with two 7.92mm machine guns.It would be operated by the crew of eight (driver, commander, gunner, radio operator and four loaders). Powered by Maybach HL230P30 or HL230P45, Grille would be able to travel at maximum speed of 45 km/h with range of 250km. Fuel capacity was to be 1000 liters. Grille was 13 meters long (with gun), 3.27 meters wide and 3.15 meters high. Its armor protection ranged from 16mm (side) to 30mm (front). Grille 17 weighted 58000kg but only carried 5 rounds of ammunition. Grille 21 weighted 52700kg and carried only 3 rounds of ammunition. One prototype with 170mm gun was almost completed in May of 1945 and was captured by British troops at Haustenbeck near Paderborn.

They started really late and had it as a lower priority, trying to motorize too many different guns, but they attempted to make the heavy guns to the Tiger.

[David Thompson]

Yoozername -- Please stay on topic and keep slighting remarks about other posters to yourself. AHF isn't interested in publishing them.

[T. A. Gardner]

This would have been a better option for infantry divisions.



Give something like that, or a smaller one for the 10.5cm, to every infantry division to tow their artillery with. Get rid of the horses in artillery regiments. Run the tractors on kerosene maybe. With steel tracks the use of critical materials like rubber is greatly reduced.

There are big limitations with using agricultural caterpillar tractors as gun tractors.
Low speed - Limited range - limited capacity for the detachment and gun stores

A better solution is somehting like this

The problem there is the Germans copied the STZ 5ch...



... in making the RSO. Hanomag and other German manufacturers were making crawler tractors pre-war that could have been used. Instead of ending their production early in the war, the Germans should have ramped it up. The RSO wasn't going to be available prior to 1942 at the earliest and it's far better to have a cheap small crawler tractor in place in 1940 that is already in service in the thousands. By the invasion of Russia, it would have been possible for every front line infantry division to have their artillery, even their 15cm infantry guns, drawn by such a vehicle.

[Yoozername]

I would suspect they captured plenty of Soviet tractors also, FWIW. But I wonder if they would actually be needed for infrastructure repair and improvement.

[Kingfish]

I was asking you to quantify the impact of the Tiger I's deployed historically between September 1942-May 1943, since you asked me to contrast the SP heavy artillery with the ability of the Tiger to stop Allied attacks.

Two obvious ways would be to point out its versatility vs the SPA you propose in a battle, and its dominance over the opposition it was likely to encounter. The SPA, like the Tiger, was a specialized weapon system, but the latter was suited for far more mission types, and was able to effect the battle at the point of the spear. In contrast, the Corp level SPA's influence was more indirect (no pun intended) and it's contribution didn't normally have any influence on the immediate battle.

Every Tiger cost as much to build as four Sturmgeschütz III assault guns.

While this may be true, it is akin to arguing an Essex-class carrier costs as much as X number of Fletcher-class destroyers.

[T. A. Gardner]

The tractor is simply a prime mover. Use the existing limbers with the guns.



That solves the space problem nicely as the horse drawn limber is still viable for carrying the ammunition and most or all of the gun crew. But, the tractor is easier for them to deal with than a team of six or eight horses. If range is an issue install a larger fuel tank and racks for additional jerry cans or other portable fuel containers. It's still less hassle than bringing forward fodder and hay for 6 to 8 horses, not to mention having to periodically rest and water them.
All around, the tractor would be a better deal.

[Yoozername]

Any fully tracked SP design to move a large piece like that, would have to have a front engine design. This allows a working space in the rear. Not sure how that would work with a Tiger I chassis.

[stg 44]

Any fully tracked SP design to move a large piece like that, would have to have a front engine design. This allows a working space in the rear. Not sure how that would work with a Tiger I chassis.

Except they did develop a Grill prototype chassis:

[Yoozername]

Except they started in 1942 and didn't finish in 1945? And it used an enlarged Tiger II chassis?

Again, how can you claim the Tiger i would be a candidate?

[Sheldrake]

... in making the RSO. Hanomag and other German manufacturers were making crawler tractors pre-war that could have been used. Instead of ending their production early in the war, the Germans should have ramped it up. The RSO wasn't going to be available prior to 1942 at the earliest and it's far better to have a cheap small crawler tractor in place in 1940 that is already in service in the thousands. By the invasion of Russia, it would have been possible for every front line infantry division to have their artillery, even their 15cm infantry guns, drawn by such a vehicle.

True - but

1. The German decision to invade the Soviet Union was based on the over confident assumption that the USSR would collapse within three months. The lack of motorised field and medium artillery tractors capable of coping with Russian conditions is just one of many deficiencies.

2. The German motor industry did not have the capacity to build enough trucks to motorise their army in 1935-1939. Motoring the divisional and medium artillery would be at the expense of motor vehicles for something else. One option was to leave the anti tank battlaions of infantry divisions and companies of regiments with horse drawn anti tank guns. Some German general advocated this in their memoirs IIRC. This would have denuded the German infantry of the motorised elements often used as the advance guards in 1941.

[stg 44]

Except they started in 1942 and didn't finish in 1945? And it used an enlarged Tiger II chassis?

Again, how can you claim the Tiger i would be a candidate?

They started late and used and experimental chassis, it wasn't given that much priority given all the other stuff going on at the time and given that the Tiger II chassis wasn't ever really reliable and they had enough problems getting the regular Tiger II to work, I'm guessing that the Grille project got relatively low priority later in the war. Start earlier with more focus on the project and the historical obstacles don't exist.

[Kingfish]

Except they started in 1942 and didn't finish in 1945? And it used an enlarged Tiger II chassis?

Again, how can you claim the Tiger i would be a candidate?

They started late and used and experimental chassis, it wasn't given that much priority given all the other stuff going on at the time and given that the Tiger II chassis wasn't ever really reliable and they had enough problems getting the regular Tiger II to work, I'm guessing that the Grille project got relatively low priority later in the war. Start earlier with more focus on the project and the historical obstacles don't exist.

Could it be that battlefield realities dictated how the priorities were arranged, and given the options available the Germans chose the more versatile system?

Sheldrake brought up a good point - the Germans were counting on a quick campaign, so the need for a Corp level heavy gun that could retreat under fire just wasn't seen as necessary.