Tanks??

[Dave Bender]

wasn't this the period when the Wehrmacht was trying hard to motorise?

I don't think so. Motorcycles were probably the only motor vehicle which the Heer had in quantity during 1939.

The 4WD (i.e. military) version of the Opel Blitz 3 ton cargo truck entered mass production during July 1940.

The Sd.Kfz.251 medium half track had just entered production. The few early production vehicles were assigned to 1st Panzer Division during 1939.

The smaller Sd.Kfz.250 half track didn't enter service until 1941.

Most armored cars consisted of the small Sd.Kfz.231 which was built on a modified truck chassis.

German artillery towing tractors began entering service during the late 1930s but numbers were small. In fact most Heer field artillery remained horse drawn throughout the war.

[phylo_roadking]

I don't think so. Motorcycles were probably the only motor vehicle which the Heer had in quantity during 1939.

The 4WD (i.e. military) version of the Opel Blitz 3 ton cargo truck entered mass production during July 1940.

Well, either they had a LOT of motorcycles...or quite a lot of trucks and other transport, for the OOB for Poland includes THESE...

1st Motorized Rifle Brigade
2nd Motorized Rifle Brigade
3rd Motorized Rifle Brigade
4th Motorized Rifle Brigade
5th Motorized Rifle Brigade
10th Motorized Rifle Brigade
15th Motorized Infantry Regiment
25th Motorized Infantry Regiment
33rd Motorized Infantry Regiment
66th Motorized Infantry Regiment
69th Motorized Infantry Regiment
71st Motorized Infantry Regiment
76th Motorized Infantry Regiment
80th Motorized Infantry Regiment
86th Motorized Infantry Regiment
92nd Motorized Infantry Regiment
93rd Motorized Infantry Regiment
LSSAH Motorized Infantry Regiment
"Großdeutschland" Motorized Infantry Regiment

...so I have a feeling the Wehrmacht had trucks etc. BEFORE the Opel Blitz arrived - all of which had to be bought and paid for and delivered BEFORE September 1st 1939

Most armored cars consisted of the small Sd.Kfz.231 which was built on a modified truck chassis

Which means what in answer to what I said? Again the point is that whatever invaded Poland had to be bought and paid for and delivered BEFORE September 1st 1939, didn't they?


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[Dave Bender]

Before mid 1940 most Wehrmacht trucks were commercial vehicles hastily repainted in military colors.

I'd also be careful about accepting German OOBs at face value. Typically they were short of authorized equipment. Some divisions were short of entire combat battalions. Operation Market-Garden is perhaps the ultimate example. On paper Germany had a Panzer Corps in Holland on 17 September 1944. In reality II SS Panzer Corps consisted of a HQ company plus a bunch of stragglers who had just been driven out of France. The entire "Panzer Corps" probably had less combat value then an infantry brigade.

[Gooner1]

That would be a waste of resources. The Panzer I and Panzer II were stepping stones on the German tank development path. Nobody considered them to be a long term solution. Not when France was producing the 20 ton S35 tank during 1936 and the Soviet Union was producing the 45 ton KV1 tank during 1939. There wasn't much Germany could do about the Soviet KV1 until the VK3001 tank entered service. However the Panzer III was production ready during 1939 and with a 5cm main gun it could defeat most French armor.

The KV1 had a lot of problems which were never satifactorily resolved and would have been useless in the campaigns Germany fought in '39 to '41. Significantly the Soviet Union had being trying to develop a 45 ton tank since 1930. Which perhaps indicates that Panzer production was not effected so much by 'priorities' as by the reality that that was all (and the best) Germany could produce by the outbreak of war.

[kriegsmarine221]

That would be a waste of resources. The Panzer I and Panzer II were stepping stones on the German tank development path. Nobody considered them to be a long term solution. Not when France was producing the 20 ton S35 tank during 1936 and the Soviet Union was producing the 45 ton KV1 tank during 1939. There wasn't much Germany could do about the Soviet KV1 until the VK3001 tank entered service. However the Panzer III was production ready during 1939 and with a 5cm main gun it could defeat most French armor.

The KV1 had a lot of problems which were never satifactorily resolved and would have been useless in the campaigns Germany fought in '39 to '41. Significantly the Soviet Union had being trying to develop a 45 ton tank since 1930. Which perhaps indicates that Panzer production was not effected so much by 'priorities' as by the reality that that was all (and the best) Germany could produce by the outbreak of war.

KV-1 was not useless for the Russians and also the Germans if they somehow did use them. Germany was severely lacking in medium PzIVs at the start of Barbarossa let alone tanks that could tackle a KV. Yes Germany had good tanks ready by 39' but it was a matter of producing them. German tank production was always very low compared to the allies (even Speer couldn't drag Germany out of it's ditch), even for their 'quality beats quantity' method.

Rough Quote from 'Panzerkrieg': "There was a KV sitting on the road blocking us, none of our tanks guns could knock it out and in the end, no less than 50 tanks attacked to distract the crew while an 88mm Flak gun was setup behind it and it took 15 shots for the 88mm to destroy it, 3 of which penetrated."

Germany's lack of heavies not in the least frustrated them?

[Gooner1]

Yes Germany had good tanks ready by 39' but it was a matter of producing them. German tank production was always very low compared to the allies (even Speer couldn't drag Germany out of it's ditch), even for their 'quality beats quantity' method.

The 'Allies' all had a tank industry before Germany began developing one. Well all except the United States but the US had much greater industry, particularly automotive, than Germany and were far more advanced in the techniques of mass production. So to what extent was Germany's 'low' production (if it was) a result of them having to develop the industry virtually from scratch?

Germany's lack of heavies not in the least frustrated them?

Not if the German intention was to advance several hundred miles quickly.

[phylo_roadking]

I'd also be careful about accepting German OOBs at face value. Typically they were short of authorized equipment. Some divisions were short of entire combat battalions. Operation Market-Garden is perhaps the ultimate example. On paper Germany had a Panzer Corps in Holland on 17 September 1944. In reality II SS Panzer Corps consisted of a HQ company plus a bunch of stragglers who had just been driven out of France. The entire "Panzer Corps" probably had less combat value then an infantry brigade.

Yes - after five years' of wartime attrition and manpower shortages!

Before mid 1940 most Wehrmacht trucks were commercial vehicles hastily repainted in military colors.

Can we see some proofs of that statement?

And what impressed civilian types produced the various armoured car types, various halftrack classes etc., that the Wehrmacht started the war with? I don't believe there were (or are) many civilian users of armoured cars...

[Baltasar]

It would certainly help finding a parking lot

[BDV]

I'd fathom to propose that even within a panzer regiment, the cost of the tanks is less than half the cost of the unit, considering the supporting equipment cost, and the cost of the crews, training, dressing, feeding, and so forth...

I wouldn't be surprised if the cost of the Panzers would be less than 25% of the cost of a 'standard' 1939 Panzer division, and maybe as low as 15% for a 1941 Panzerdivision. Which means that the 3-4% for tanks may actually reflect 12-25% of Wehrmacht expeditures were for the Panzer arm.

[Alanmccoubrey]

1. If germany would have its Tiger II tanks MAS produced by 1939. How many do you think would have been built??

2. If 1000 Tiger II tanks would face 1000 Shermans. Hwo would win?

3. Would 1000 Tiger II tanks have done anything at D-day (against the allied tanks)

1. Since this would also mean that the Soviets had developed the T34 and KV's in about 1936 and therefore overrun Germany in 1937 not a lot of chance then.

2.The Shermans, just after they called in the Typhoons and Thunderbolts.

3.Yes, they'd have made great targets for the Allied Airforces and Navies.

[phylo_roadking]

...the cost of the tanks is less than half the cost of the unit, considering the supporting equipment cost, and the cost of the crews, training, dressing, feeding, and so forth...

A properly detailed breakdown of expenditure would be useful - for I have the feeling that these latter would be accounted for elsewhere in the budget. There are "economies of scale" to be made in the centralised ordering/provision of accomodation, foodstuffs, etc. and no constantly-rolling development/project costs, unlike tanks and other hardware requiring updating and constant development; a 1939 loaf or sausage is the same as a 1944 loaf or sausage - bar the amount of sawdust therein!

and maybe as low as 15% for a 1941 Panzerdivision.

This I doubt...given the ongoing replacement/updating requirement for hardware courtesy of the "renewal" of hostilities - in Russia

[BDV]

I meant, from the cost of a freshly minted panzer division. Which they were in 1939.

The turnover for field kitchens, 1st aid stations, repair/tow vehicles, and gas trucks should be much less than for the panzers, so during the war proper panzers would likely take a bigger share of the costs. Or maybe not, with all that fuel and ammo being expedited.

Well, unless the whole division is a complete write-off a la Stalingrad, and one has to start from square one.

[phylo_roadking]

The turnover for field kitchens, 1st aid stations, repair/tow vehicles, and gas trucks should be much less than for the panzers...

Rommel might not have thought so immediately after Arras

[Dave Bender]

I agree. However the handwriting was on the wall during 1939. The Soviet Union intended to field 45 ton tanks. If the KV1 didn't pan out it was reasonable to assume the Red Army would field a replacement heavy tank.

[Dave Bender]

During the first year of WWII we are talking about replacing Pz Mk I training vehicles and Panzer Mk II light tanks with real tanks (i.e. Panzer Mk III. 5cm main gun). Until this is accomplished there should be no creation of additional panzer divisions.