Iceland in WW 2. Operation Ikarus, value therof etc.

[Chromeboomerang]

Earmarked for Holland means May after April occupation of Iceland. Again already covered.

I'm afraid Janes is not nearly as respectable as many internet sites. & proabaly referring to the mg3 not the mg4.



Specifications (Ju 52/3mg3e):
Engines: Three 725-hp BMW 132A-3 radial piston engines
Weight: Empty 12,610 lbs., Max Takeoff 23,149 lbs.
Wing Span: 95ft. 11.5in.
Length: 62ft. 0in.
Height: 18ft. 2.5in.
Performance:
Maximum Speed: 171 mph
Ceiling: 19,360 ft.
Range: 800 miles with auxiliary fuel tanks

[phylo_roadking]

No - NOT covered. Just ignored by you like all other considerations that you don't agree with - but happen to be historical facts. You haven't managed to account for servicing, training, relocation of aircraft and support staff. The Ju52s used in Norway required two weeks' servicing before Holland. That means they have to be released from the Norwegian air bridge by the 25th of April at the latest.

SO given that 1940 vintage 3m g5e's can't reach Iceland anyway except empy on ferry flights - and operations can't START until after the 9th of April at the VERY earliest - what's your timetable for the 16 days they're available to ferry to Iceland and what are they going to do while they're there. The operation has them for exactly two weeks - and they WILL be pulled; the LW pulled Wolfram vom Richthofen's fighters three days into the battle for Crete - right in the middle of their defence supression role - and sent them to Rumania, so don't think for a moment they won't pull the Ju52s for a more important operation like the invasion of the West.

[Chromeboomerang]

Nope already brought up by another poster & dismissed on a previous page.


Transport Type Cargo
Weight Maximum
Range
Ju-52 (some on pontons) 3,000 lbs 1,070 mi
Ju-52 5,000 lbs 780 mi
Ju-52 7,500 lbs 250 mi

http://www.lonesentry.com/manuals/airborne/range.html

[Chromeboomerang]

This is your previous quote on page 2. Again, already covered. Reread page 2. & D0 215's & perhaps a couple U-boats would likely take east fjiords prior to 52's being launched,(52's are not the only exclusively available A/C on hand). The 215's would land signalmen with flareguns to guide the 52's in. They wouldn't waste 70 miles to group in formation, rather they would fly singly. & most pilots know the tricks on how to get extra mileage, different altitudes have thinner air etc. Trim the props etc.

...and pretty much ALL were earmarked for HOLLAND in May anyway...where they were about to end up decimated, bent and broken on various muddy airfields or sandy beaches.




As to Condors, with seats taken out & they fly out of Norway to Reykjavic, they have only between 900 & 1000 miles to go. That means they can carry less fuel. Which means what in terms of lift capacity Phylo?

[phylo_roadking]

No, that's an Allied intelligence approximation with THIS caveat - "loads and ranges being variable" For credibility we'll stay with Jane's.

NOW you're demonstrating how little you even know about your precious Condors. Do you know what their operating problems were?

Remember - to reach Iceland - your Ju52s have to fly with extra tankage fitted; and empty; and they therefore WON'T be available for use in the rest of the Norwegian campaign. You have NO fighter escort out to Iceland even Ne110s have to turn round for Norway again before halfway; The RN and RN Patrol Service will interdict surface cargo vessels; The KM can provide no escorts after their losses at Narvik...and the rest of their fleet hiding in Bergen. You have exactly NINE Condors - that will not be able to land anywhere EXCEPT a paved runway - particularly the five FW-200B's; your empty Ju52's can reach Eastland but no further without refuelling. Your shortest air route brings you withing range for a time of aircraft intercepting from the Shetlands.

Meanwhile the Allies have several thousand troops on board ships twiddling their thumbs off Norway and not landing for some time. They have TOTAL control of the North Sea. Events at the end of the norwegian campaign proved they could actually land and ferry land-based fighter aircraft by carrier if necessary. An operation like Ikarus will not be mountable without being observed by the locals and intelligence passed on...especially if they're forced to work on improving the runways required for it!.....

BTW - Vaernes took "2-3 weeks" to improve; let's say that improvement actually staryts on the 9th of April; THAT means that at the earliest figure of two weeks, it won't be available to reduce the range to its minimum until the 23rd. THAT means Ikarus has its JU52s able to reach Iceland for EXACTLY TWO DAYS...

So - what are your plans for Ikarus - given that ALL the circumstances you've created for yourself - operating in Aoril, using the Aircraft earmarked for Holland, the range isues, the improvements at Vaernes etc - you have exactly 48 hours to A/ invade B/ conquer and C/ roll out the occupation of ALL of Iceland...

Remember - flying time; exactly how many times can any Ju52 actaully fly back and forth between Norway and Iceland in 48 hours??? AND you have to count in a minimum 45 mites' turnaround time for refuelling and embarkation in Vaernes.

[Chromeboomerang]

For credibility we'll stay with Jane's.

For credibility we'll not. Janes 540 mg3 data not relevant to mg4.


Quote..

Remember - to reach Iceland - your Ju52s have to fly with extra tankage fitted; and empty; and they therefore WON'T be available for use in the rest of the Norwegian campaign.


Remember, this is a REALLY dumb proposal. 582 JU 52's are on hand. Not all would be sent to Iceland. To think so is dumb. & who would send them empty?


The Luftwaffe performed yeoman service: 582 transport aircraft delivered 29,280 men and 2,376 tons of supplies during the course of the campaign. http://www.strategypage.com/militaryforums/335-82.aspx http://magweb.n1uro.com/sample/sconflic/co03wesm.htm








Quote.
You have NO fighter escort out to Iceland even Ne110s have to turn round for Norway again before halfway;

Wrong again, D model ME 110's are available April 1940.


Yes I know about Condors. With half the fuel, seats taken out & flying from Norway, they will have zero difficulty reaching Reykjavic with 30 men aboard.





JU 52 G5e could also be fitted with floats.

Quote

provision for an interchangeable wheel ski or float landing gear
http://www.ju52-3m.ch/about.htm

[Chromeboomerang]

Quote.
you have exactly 48 hours to A/ invade B/ conquer and C/ roll out the occupation of ALL of Iceland...

British did it in one day. There is no conquer to speak of really, Iceland has only 120.000 mostly unarmed people. Who were more pro German than pro British in 1940 as an asides.

[phylo_roadking]

For credibility we'll stay with Jane's.

For credibility we'll not.

Where Jane's figures are available, they're regarded as reliable. You should know THAT much - you're damaging your credibility even further.

Wrong again, D model ME 110's are available April 1940

I'm afraid it's the D-model and later with the extra tankage that can reach 745 miles...and the D-model "flew" but wasn't available in April. The pre-production D-0 aircraft were only flying operationally in late AUGUST.

Yes I know about Condors.

Obviously - not enough. Do you know what happens to fully-loaded B-models right at their weight limit - on landing?

[phylo_roadking]

British did it in one day. There is no conquer to speak of really, Iceland has only 120.000 mostly unarmed people.

Exactly - the the minute the first sod is dug at Vaernes they're on their way. It takes 2 weeks minimum to get Vaernes extended and ready for operations, at flank the RN will be in Reykjavik in four days maximum.

I'm afraid the Ikarus force is going to meet men in khaki, not wooden sweaters and seaboots. And if some phantom force somewhere should swarm ashore in Icleand from U-boats or some OTHER nonsense - just remember how the Allies were able to get ashore in the face of dug-in German opposition at Narvik.

[LWD]

Quote..
A single weather station in Iceland and a U-boat south of Greenland are not going to supply anywhere near enough data to come close to what he had and that wasn't in many ways marginal.

Brazil to Africa is several times longer distance. Apples & Oranges comparison. Germans could send ships inbetween Iceland & Noway if they required extra information, a recon plane or 2 as well. They also had their diplomats in Iceland, which likely would have had radio. Weather presents no insuperable problems.

Not at all. As a percentage of range I'm not sure it was that much longer and like I said the US had a lot more weather gathering capability.

A U-boat South of Greenland for instance can only gather intermittent surface conditions and some rough observations aloft. Even the station in Iceland is only a single data point. Makes it really difficult to get any sort of detailed weather prediction and even broad front movement would be pretty rough.

[LWD]

.... Any Brit warships near Iceland sunk on sight.

By what? Do you have any idea how many sorties it took to sink a warship? Just what percentage of the LW are you suggesting get moved to Iceland? Then what happens if a BB or even a cruiser gets in range of the airfield unspotted? Not all that hard to do especially given the fog that tends to pop up around Iceland but even without it look at the Japanese raids on Henderson.

[Chromeboomerang]

Brazil to Africa is farther then 600 miles.

Sinking a warship is not neccessary, hit it & send it home is enough. Which the Germans did at Norway.




Quote.
Forbes' ships were attacked continuously by waves of He 111 and Ju 88 bombers; the battleship Rodney, the cruisers Devonshire, Southhampton, and Glasgow were damaged, and the destroyer Gurkha was sunk west of Stavanger. This display of German air superiority led Forbes to conclude that ships could not be protected by anti-aircraft guns without fighter plane support.

http://magweb.n1uro.com/sample/sconflic/co03wesc.htm





As for the 1st shovel of dirt at Vaernes theory Phylo, why then didn't the British do what you've suggested when the Germans dug the 1st shovel of dirt there & land in Iceland? They didn't, so we can toss that theory straight away.

[LWD]

... Iceland has only 120.000 mostly unarmed people. Who were more pro German than pro British in 1940 as an asides.

Do you have a source for that? From what I've read they were less than happy with the Germans.

[LWD]

Brazil to Africa is farther then 600 miles.

So. The B-24 had a greater range than the German planes as well.

Sinking a warship is not neccessary, hit it & send it home is enough. Which the Germans did at Norway.

How many sorties did it take to do it though? Look at how little damage they actually did to British forces at Dunkirk and they caught a lot of those standing still. And they didn't accomplish much at Crete until the British ran out of AA ammo. And they have to bring in all the fuel, ammo, and parts required for this.

Quote.
Forbes' ships were attacked continuously by waves of He 111 and Ju 88 bombers; the battleship Rodney, the cruisers Devonshire, Southhampton, and Glasgow were damaged, and the destroyer Gurkha was sunk west of Stavanger. This display of German air superiority led Forbes to conclude that ships could not be protected by anti-aircraft guns without fighter plane support.

How many sorties? And what size strikes? (the latter proved critical in the Pacific)

[T. A. Gardner]

This thread has seen some truly threadbare attempts at plausibilty.

On the air lift:

Even if a Ju 52 has an 800 mile range this is so reduced by having to use large flights of aircraft, formation flying, and weather that none would make Iceland and land intact. Landing on open fields that are unmarked is simply asking for a crash. I doubt that Chrome could find a single case in WW 2 of a successful landing by a large multi-engine aircraft on permafrost / tundra, peat heath, bog, or even plowed ground anywhere.
As for how many men will fit in the aircraft: This is not just a weight issue. It is a space issue. Men take up considerable space compared to their weight. Seating will need to be provided. Clear space for entry and exit will be required. You can't simply hang men off the wings like bombs.

Using trawlers for a fuel source for aircraft is simply absurd. Most of Iceland's trawlers are coal fired and virtually all, if not all use double or triple vertical expansion steam engines. Those that are not coal fired use bunker fuel. I would suspect that aviation fuels are a rarity on Iceland in 1940. In fact, some still sported sails as an auxiliary propulsion means.
Even post war the diesel trawler remained the exception for well over a decade in every European fishing fleet. For a good overview see for instance: Britain's Fishing Industry by sir John D. Marsden, Bart. in Ships Annual 1958 Craig J. M. Carter ed., London, 1958

The idea that the Germans can simply commandeer such ships and crew them is patently absurd. Their troops wouldn't have a clue how to operate the machinery, light off the boilers (done wrong they die and the ship sinks), maintain steam, navigate, or do any of dozens of other highly techincal jobs on even these rather basic ships.

Surface ships transiting to Iceland from mainland Europe take DAYS to make the voyage. An 800 mile transit at 10 knots (fairly fast for a freighter, and about double the speed of a trawler) takes 80 hours or about three and a half days. A trawler would require nearly a week to make the voyage.

So, even if somehow the Germans did manage to fly in some troops and secure an airfield what could they do with it? They would have no aircraft maintenance personnel to speak of. There would be few if any engineers and no engineering equipment to maintain the field. They might try in time to impress the locals into this work but that would take time to arrange.
Even then, where does the hundreds of tons of avgas come from? U-boats cannot haul it. Sending a tanker or other merchant is suicide. At least convoys to North Africa were escorted, often heavily, by the Italian Navy. The German and Italian air forces heavily interdicted Malta to prevent air attacks. The Germans in 1940 don't have suitable escorts available. Most of their destroyers are sunk or damaged. Virtually all their heavier ships are also damaged.
Even if and when it arrives the Germans will have to make arrangements locally for labor to manually unload the ship as there are no port services, cranes, or other equipment available in Iceland at the time. This means unloading will take days to accomplish, possibly weeks. Then all of these supplies need to be hauled from the port to wherever they are needed, possibly many miles away. The lack of warehouse space also means that there is going to be alot of wastage. Supplies sitting out in the weather are not going to fare well for long.

Basically, the Germans lack the necessary aircraft, ships, manpower, equipment, and logistics to mount a successful invasion of Iceland.