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Iceland in WW 2. Operation Ikarus, value therof etc.

Discussions on alternate history, including events up to 20 years before today.

Re: Iceland in WW 2. Operation Ikarus, value therof etc.

Postby phylo_roadking on 25 Sep 2008 23:55

Initially the FW200 was intended to be a twenty-six-seat low wing monoplane, Militarized version without bombs should well be able to carry more than that. Try 30.

http://www.modelingmadness.com/reviews/ ... ard200.htm

Military configuration Fw 200C-3/U4, Crew 5, Troops 30


Here's a hint for the future - don't gamble that people will actually NOT read the link....

The one other FW200C-4/U2, work No 138 provided accommodation for 14


It was the sole example of the FW200 C-4/UI coded GC-AF number 5, and work No 137 that was built as passenger transport and at the same time was fully armed and embodying special features. This incorporated the fitting of two compartments, which jointly could accommodate 11 passengers.


The militarised versions with armour, defensive armament, flying crew of five but additional gunners etc, were HEAVIER, not lighter. They had extra tankage, armour, guns, mission supplies etc. - and configured as transports carried FEWER "passengers"...

....by the way - only FOUR Condors existed in April 1940, the four C-0 aircraft used in Norway as transports. I make it that the first invasion of Iceland therefore would be by 56 men...
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Re: Iceland in WW 2. Operation Ikarus, value therof etc.

Postby Chromeboomerang on 26 Sep 2008 00:07

Quote..
Do you want the bad news??? Check the distance from anywhere occupied as of APRIL in Norway...to Reykjavik...

Bergen to Reykjavik? 845 miles
Stavanger to Reykjavik? 945 miles
Trondheim to Reykjavik? 959 miles

The range of a 1940 Me110-C? 745 miles....

The LW aren't gping to have any fighters on Iceland unless they dismantle 109s and freight them there.

P.S. also kinda messes up using Ju52s......


Er, a bit late Phylo. We've already covered the 600 plus miles from Vaernes to east coast of Iceland. No need to go to Reykjavic. JU 52 made for landing on grass, & as previously pointed out, landing ground already surveyed out in 1938 by German teams.

Here again is your bad news...

Quote..
Iceland is located in the North Atlantic Ocean just south of the Arctic Circle
The closest distance to the mainland of Europe is 970 km (to Norway).

970 kilometers = (600 miles)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iceland#Topography













The weather for this time of year (end of April, 2004) is very much like that of northern new England. The first day was bright and sunny with a light breeze. All that was needed was a light wind breaker or a sweater to take the edge off the 60+ F temperatures.
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Re: Iceland in WW 2. Operation Ikarus, value therof etc.

Postby Chromeboomerang on 26 Sep 2008 00:13

Quote,





....by the way - only FOUR Condors existed in April 1940, the four C-0 aircraft used in Norway as transports. I make it that the first invasion of Iceland therefore would be by 56 men...


so what, send some B's. 56 men plus the 1000's that would go in JU 52's & cargo ships.




Quote
flying crew of five but additional gunners etc, were HEAVIER, not lighter. They had extra tankage, armour, guns, mission supplies etc.

Take out armor, guns. Men don't weigh that much gimme a break. With a bomb load of Bomb Load of
4,626 lbs, you're arguning without those bombs it could only carry 11 guys! Ridiculous beyond belief.
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Re: Iceland in WW 2. Operation Ikarus, value therof etc.

Postby Chromeboomerang on 26 Sep 2008 00:26

Quote.
for how many days? Do you know how much it takes to feed and keep a brigade or division fed and armed??? What are they going to do for the NEXT five years??? P.S. the answer is- starve.

Right, with 80.000 horses, 22 frozen fish processing plants, & Iceland was self sufficient in potatoes, milk & a few other vegetables I imagine they'll do just fine. Do some research before launching these uninformed sillinesses.

Iceland is essentially a big farm with loads of fishing vessels. Food is the least of the Germans worries.










Quote.
Nor are the germans going to be able to mount a operation in Sotuerhn Norway against Iceland without being observed, or word being passed north to the Allies.


Great so they get observed. So what. They'll be there before British can react to it. Channel dash anyone? Iceland falls in a day. That's all it took when the British arrived, would be no different for Germans.
Last edited by Chromeboomerang on 26 Sep 2008 00:30, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Iceland in WW 2. Operation Ikarus, value therof etc.

Postby phylo_roadking on 26 Sep 2008 00:30

Take out armor, guns. Men don't weigh that much gimme a break. With a bomb load of Bomb Load of
4,626 lbs, you're arguning without those bombs it could only carry 11 guys! Ridiculous beyond belief.


Can you not even count? 56 divided by four is FOURTEEN! That's what the four existing C-0 aircraft were designed to carry! You can't miracle THIRTY fully-armed men into an aircraft that even in lighter-running civilian form only carried 26!
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Re: Iceland in WW 2. Operation Ikarus, value therof etc.

Postby Chromeboomerang on 26 Sep 2008 00:31

Can you count B model Condors !!!

The Fw 200B and Fw 200C models were used as long-range bombers, reconnaissance, troop and transport planes.

These are built for transport, not civvies. That means their lift-cargo capacity is much greater. C'mon man.



Notice the engine upgrades.

Fw 200 B-1
Transportation aircraft fitted with four BMW 132Dc engines.
Fw 200 B-2
Transportation aircraft fitted with four BMW 132H engines.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focke-Wulf_Fw_200
Last edited by Chromeboomerang on 26 Sep 2008 00:38, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Iceland in WW 2. Operation Ikarus, value therof etc.

Postby phylo_roadking on 26 Sep 2008 00:36

I'm sure I can - all....FIVE! :lol:

P.S. the BMW 132 radial versions were all of LESS power output than the C-model's Bramo 323s.....and combat troops tend to be heavier than civilians - its the shooty gun thingys that do it. So there's STILL going to be less than the 26 the B models - all five of them - were designed for.
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Re: Iceland in WW 2. Operation Ikarus, value therof etc.

Postby phylo_roadking on 26 Sep 2008 00:43

Quote..
Iceland is located in the North Atlantic Ocean just south of the Arctic Circle
The closest distance to the mainland of Europe is 970 km (to Norway).

970 kilometers = (600 miles)


That MAY be the closest distance - but it's not the distance from Vaernes to the East Coast. Using Hornafjordur, Hallormsstadur and Reydarfjordur as sample locations - it works out at 700 miles....(actually, it averages at 705)

The margin of airtime for JU52s to formate over Norway, and scout for a landing field at the other end is shrinking right down. Needs to be a perfectly calm day...one touch of headwind and -
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Re: Iceland in WW 2. Operation Ikarus, value therof etc.

Postby Chromeboomerang on 26 Sep 2008 00:46

Which is entirely within the 808 mile range of the JU 52. What's yer point?

& perhaps someone could enlighten you to the difference between a passenger plane & a cargo plane. A cargo plane has the seats taken out so cargo can be fitted in, ( cargo that weighs considerable more than humans do), Therefore, one could cram 50 people in a cargo plane as it is not limited by how many seats it has. Who-da thunk??


& original Pratt & Whitneys that carried 26 passengers had less HP than BMW 132 D G or H.

Early prototypes were fitted with the Pratt & Whitney Hornet radial piston engines generating 750hp each. Subsequent wartime powerplants reverted to native BMW-series radials including the BMW 132G-1 and the BMW 132H. The trans-Atlantic passenger models were equipped to carry 26 flyers in two separate cabins.



http://www.militaryfactory.com/aircraft ... aft_id=237


BMW 132
589 kW (789 hp) for takeoff
581 kW (779 hp) at 2,290 rpm at 2,900 m (9,515 ft)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_132
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Re: Iceland in WW 2. Operation Ikarus, value therof etc.

Postby phylo_roadking on 26 Sep 2008 01:05

It's withing the FERRY range of the 1940 Ju-52/3m g5e at 808-810 mls unladen and with extra tankage....but not it's combat range i.e. carrying troops. THAT was only 540 mls...

Fully laden but with extra underfloor bladders in the "dead space" below the 52's internal decking, the range increased to 610 miles.

It was the 3m g7e of 1941 and later models had the increased range.

Therefore, one could cram 50 people in a cargo plane as it is not limited by how many seats it has. Who-da thunk??


That's not how the LW went about its business into a combat zone. A Ju52 of ANY model wouldn't got off the ground with fifty men onboard. Even configured for airllanded as opposed to parachute troops - they carried 20 as opposed to the normal stick of only TWELVE paratroops. For a maximum of 610 miles as of 1940.
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Re: Iceland in WW 2. Operation Ikarus, value therof etc.

Postby Chromeboomerang on 26 Sep 2008 01:10

Not a 52, a Condor.
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Re: Iceland in WW 2. Operation Ikarus, value therof etc.

Postby Chromeboomerang on 26 Sep 2008 01:11

Wrong on JU 52's also. Please try & keep up. all this previously covered.


JU/mg4e. late 30's Range 808 miles. In 1937 it was slowly withdrawn from it's bomber role, and served more as a transport,

Quote..
Ju52/mg4e transport aircraft delivered to the Swiss air force in the late 1930s were not retired from service until 1981, and these airplanes still fly regularly giving joyrides around Europe. The Ju 52/3mg3e was powered by three 725-hp BMW 132A-3 radial piston engines, giving the airplane a maximum speed of 171 mph at 2,955 feet, service ceiling of 19,360 feet, and a range with auxiliary fuel of 808 miles. Airplane armament was two 31-caliber MG 15 machine guns, plus up to 1,102lbs. of bombs.

http://www.worldaircorps.com/airplanes/am312.htm

Number built: unknown out of a total of 5.415

http://www.xs4all.nl/~fbonne/warbirds/w ... #junkju520
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Re: Iceland in WW 2. Operation Ikarus, value therof etc.

Postby phylo_roadking on 26 Sep 2008 01:17

Exactly. That takes out the 1940-vintage Ju52s from the equation. See below.

The trans-Atlantic passenger models were equipped to carry 26 flyers in two separate cabins.


No - they were DESIGNED to carry 26 passengers. For the two flights to New York all internal furnishings were removed, and instead of 26 passnegers plus crew - exactly THREE people were aboard, pilot copilot and flight engineer...and a VERY small bag of stamped mail. That's why the Americans pulled the licnse from them - they regarded Lufthansa as cheating. The license was for a regular mail AND passenger service - and to cross the Atlantic the Condor couldn't carry any paying passengers.
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Re: Iceland in WW 2. Operation Ikarus, value therof etc.

Postby phylo_roadking on 26 Sep 2008 01:20

Ju52/mg4e transport aircraft delivered to the Swiss air force in the late 1930s were not retired from service until 1981, and these airplanes still fly regularly giving joyrides around Europe. The Ju 52/3mg3e was powered by three 725-hp BMW 132A-3 radial piston engines, giving the airplane a maximum speed of 171 mph at 2,955 feet, service ceiling of 19,360 feet, and a range with auxiliary fuel of 808 miles


Wrong - that's its FERRY range - unladen with tanks on the fuselage decking. Janes' puts the range at combat range at 540 miles - and I'm afraid THEY are far more respected a source than any internet site.
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Re: Iceland in WW 2. Operation Ikarus, value therof etc.

Postby phylo_roadking on 26 Sep 2008 01:26

P.S. with 475 earmarked for Holland - have you found out yet how many Ju52s this leaves for Iceland?
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