Japanese invasion of Hawaii December 1941.

[T. A. Gardner]

The US carrier program as of 12/41 was as follows (by yard, type and number)

Newport News VA: 3 Essex class with a fourth just being started.
Bethlehem, MA: 2 Essex class
New York Shipbuilding, NY: 5 Essex Class
All of those had been laid down and were anywhere from one to six months into construction.

I fear there is a typo here : the ships built at New York Shipbuilding were CVL-22 to 26, that is Independence-class light aircraft carriers. (and CVL-26 was actually laid down after the war began, on 29 december).

They were listed wrong in the quick refenence list I used from Aircraft Carriers of the US Navy, Terzibaschitsch. Good catch.

Oooooh! Where can we read about that one? I'd seen remarks about "..a conversion plan.." but nothing with any real info. Thanks.

U. S. Aircraft Carriers Norman Friedmann

[ChristopherPerrien]

Chris, you can view chunks of it online...

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=PbA7 ... to&f=false

Thanks Philo, from what I can tell Yamamoto may have/did? authorized a small "staff study" on Dec 9, and it was more probable that it occured just to give a "favored?" subordinate (Cpt. Kuroshima) more time and "juice" to spend on the issue. Or perhaps it was just to get this busybody something to do. Not that Yamamoto actually ever considered invading Hawaii possible or perhaps just " dream/saki-thinking". I can see where to author (Stephan) took this "shred" and made a book out of with very slanted/mis-place context/assumptive writing to that effect. I could write a book on how Kaiser Wilhelm/German Empire planned/hope to invade the USA in WWI doing the same.

What I would like to know, is that if this book was originally a "doctorate" thesis because it does have a few hints of being built out of such. The footnote section on google only covers part of two chapters.

Chris

[phylo_roadking]

I got the same "extended dissertation" feeling too; there's a lot more of those about that I'd originally thought...particularly facing the more obscure topics I'm coming across at the minute - and the thing is....WE don't know if the writer ever got his grades His tutor could have chucked it out the nearest window for all we know! Wouldn't stop someone selfpublishing or a university publishing house picking it up...

And there's a lot of make-work dross put out by decent researchers and historians too, especially those who hold a tenure dependent on their publication rate "Researching" chairs, requiring x-number of magazine articles or books in a given time, that sort of thing, very common in Europe and the UK...(that's why you get the older and more established names in "endowed" chairs - 'cos they don't have to do as much leg-work that way! )

Interestingly, I flicked through what I COULD see, and through a lot of the Yamamoto references....and the ONE place were there MIGHT have been an answer to whether HE really thought it was possible, pages 90-92, are blanked out That's the bummer with Google Reader.

[glenn239]

I can see where to author (Stephan) took this "shred" and made a book out of with very slanted/mis-place context/assumptive writing to that effect.

What part of the Combined Fleet staff having completed their preliminary invasion planning for Hawaii in mid-January 1942 did you have difficulty understanding?

[phylo_roadking]

Glenn, that's what Planning Staffs DO - they plan. They plan anything and everything. And meanwhile anything/everything gathering dust on their shelves as of December 7th would have needed updating in light of the new situation in the Pacific, while that situation would ALSO have opened up new vistas.

For instance - IF the Japanese had landed on Hawaii - even before the conquest had been completed someone on the staff would have begun to look at ideas and plans for the WEST COAST!

[ChristopherPerrien]

Well I see your online, the last part of the listed book, infers that Dr. Stephans had a Doctorate from about 1970, so I am incline to think this may have been his "original" interest/what got him started, besides being able to read/understand Japanese. Sadly I can't do the same , I only speak one foreign language ,English, although at times past, usually drunken, I have been fluent in, German , Japanese, Chinese, Korean, Tagalog, Spanish, Russian, and few others I don't remember .

Regards Chris

[phylo_roadking]

Well I see your online, the last part of the listed book, infers that Dr. Stephans had a Doctorate from about 1970, so I am incline to think this may have been his "original" interest/what got him started, besides being able to read/understand Japanese.

Maybe not...

John J. Stephan, Hawaii under the Rising Son: Japan's Plan for Conquest after Pearl Harbor (Honolulu: University of Hawaii Press, 1984)

...more like one of those placeholding publications? Especially if he had a chair at Hawaii U.???

[robdab]

glenn239 wrote,

What part of the Combined Fleet staff having completed their preliminary invasion planning for Hawaii in mid-January 1942 did you have difficulty understanding ?

So you have twice now typed here but perhaps your "opinion" would be more believable if you were to provide a verifyable source(s) for that information ?

Prange's "At Dawn We Slept" does list some detail on Genda's pre-Pearl Harbor belief/plan that a 2 division Japanese invasion force should accompany the Kido Butai to Hawaiian waters. He also points the "finger of blame" at the more senior IJN officer who edited that entire idea out of the final version of Genda's Oahu attack planning that was eventually presented for Yamamoto's consideration.

One can only wonder what might have transpired had Yamamoto been able to read ALL of Genda's ideas on beginning the Pacific War with an all out attack on Oahu, several months prior to Dec.7'41.

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In light of aipaul's earlier mention of Hawaii's population balance, can anyone tell me if John J. Stephan's book includes US military personnel in his Hawaiian Islands population total of 400,000 souls ? Some 160,000 of those were of Japanese ancestry and 40,000 of those 160,000 STILL held Japanese citizenship on Dec.7'41 but IIRC there were almost 100,000 American military personnel resident there at the same time. Were those 100,000+/- US Army, Navy, Marine, Army Air Force people & their families included in Stephan's 400,000 total or were they extra to it for a population total closer to 500,000 ? Any additional clarity would be most appreciated.

[ChristopherPerrien]

glenn239 wrote,

What part of the Combined Fleet staff having completed their preliminary invasion planning for Hawaii in mid-January 1942 did you have difficulty understanding ?

So you have twice now typed here but perhaps your "opinion" would be more believable if you were to provide a verifyable source(s) for that information ?

Prange's "At Dawn We Slept" does list some detail on Genda's pre-Pearl Harbor belief/plan that a 2 division Japanese invasion force should accompany the Kido Butai to Hawaiian waters. He also points the "finger of blame" at the more senior IJN officer who edited that entire idea out of the final version of Genda's Oahu attack planning that was eventually presented for Yamamoto's consideration.

One can only wonder what might have transpired had Yamamoto been able to read ALL of Genda's ideas on beginning the Pacific War with an all out attack on Oahu, several months prior to Dec.7'41.

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In light of aipaul's earlier mention of Hawaii's population balance, can anyone tell me if John J. Stephan's book includes US military personnel in his Hawaiian Islands population total of 400,000 souls ? Some 160,000 of those were of Japanese ancestry and 40,000 of those 160,000 STILL held Japanese citizenship on Dec.7'41 but IIRC there were almost 100,000 American military personnel resident there at the same time. Were those 100,000+/- US Army, Navy, Marine, Army Air Force people & their families included in Stephan's 400,000 total or were they extra to it for a population total closer to 500,000 ? Any additional clarity would be most appreciated.

Interesting post Robdab, And let me add further, FWIIW, Japanese "Americans", for all the "pre-war and during war-prejudice" and BS-possiblilty that they would fight for Japan instead of America; Proved themselves to be truely "American". They fought harder for "America" in WWII than even most "Americans". Read up on the war-record of the 442th Reg.(most highly decorated US unit in WWII) and anyone here try to tell me that the Hawaiian/American/Japanese, "Nisei"(sp?) would have welcomed or even helped a Japanese invasion. Odds are, they would have fought the "yellow-peril" as well as they fought/resisted the "Nazi-peril". I rest my case on that issue.

Chris

[aipaul]

Interesting post Robdab, And let me add further, FWIIW, Japanese "Americans", for all the "pre-war and during war-prejudice" and BS-possiblilty that they would fight for Japan instead of America; Proved themselves to be truely "American". They fought harder for "America" in WWII than even most "Americans". Read up on the war-record of the 442th Reg.(most highly decorated US unit in WWII) and anyone here try to tell me that the Hawaiian/American/Japanese, "Nisei"(sp?) would have welcomed or even helped a Japanese invasion. Odds are, they would have fought the "yellow-peril" as well as they fought/resisted the "Nazi-peril". I rest my case on that issue.

Chris

In the book, it says this view is a oversimplified stereotype just like earlier the "yellow-peril" one. I said before that I actually live in Hawaii and am Japanese American myself. I know all about the 442nd regiment and how bravely they fought but that doesn't mean all the Hawaii Japanese would have fought to defend the US. I really did read that many wanted Japan to win and when they started losing the war, many openly wept when they heard the news. Read about Airman 1st Class Shigenori Nishikaichi and his adventures on the island of Niihau.

http://www.historynet.com/the-niihau-incident.htm

[robdab]

.
Chris,you replied with,

Interesting post Robdab, And let me add further, FWIIW, Japanese "Americans", for all the "pre-war and during war-prejudice" and BS-possiblilty that they would fight for Japan instead of America; Proved themselves to be truely "American". They fought harder for "America" in WWII than even most "Americans". Read up on the war-record of the 442th Reg.(most highly decorated US unit in WWII) and anyone here try to tell me that the Hawaiian/American/Japanese, "Nisei"(sp?) would have welcomed or even helped a Japanese invasion. Odds are, they would have fought the "yellow-peril" as well as they fought/resisted the "Nazi-peril". I rest my case on that issue.

Rest away and thump your patriotic chest all you want.

I am well aware of the years later combat record of that Nisei unit on behalf of the Allies in Europe but note that they were sent to fight in Europe, NOT in the Pacific theatre. Was that decision a matter of trust or just a desire to avoid "blue-on-blue" firefight mistakes ? All joking aside, I cannot help but agree with BOTH you and aipaul. The vast majority of the 160,000 Japanese/Americans would most likely have stayed completely loyal to their new American homeland. But even 1% would still total out to some 1,600 rebels. Probably even the great majority of the 40,000 on Hawaii who were STILL citizens of Japan on Dec.7'41 would stay loyal to America also but even 1% would still total out to some 400 rebels behind US lines.

Just as valid however is aipaul's example of the 2 Japanese/Americans who aided that Kido Butai pilot in his short term takeover of Niihau Island. Two classic examples of people wanting to side with the apparent winner.

Had a Japanese invasion of the Hawaiian Islands begun with the historical Pearl Harbor attacks then I think it likely that many of the 1,500 Japanese /American (troublemakers ?) historically arrested by the FBI in the first three days might instead have avoided capture by hiding, to later ferment rebellion within that community of 160,000. Some 40% of Hawaii's population. Even if not successfull on any wide scale, it would have taken only a very few incidents to send General Short's paranoia over 5th columnists into overdrive. US Army troops of Japanese ancestry would have been disarmed and detained, thus draining much defensive manpower, at just the time that China combat veteran Japanese troops were coming ashore. Such turmoil and confusion behind US lines could NOT have benefitted the American defence.

The two divisions of US Army troops defending Hawaii had only just undergone massive divisional re-organization, in October of 1941, which saw the still too fresh inclusion of 2 full regiments of Hawaiian raised National Guard troops within their ranks. Many of whom were of 1st or 2nd generation Japanese extraction. Any fear of 5th column distruptions, even if largely untrue, would have caused utter HAVOC in the combat green US Army's Hawaiian defence plans at the worst possible moment.

Let alone if a really significant rebellion ever got going. I can only imagine that had Japan actually planned a Hawaiian invasion then IJN submarines would have been landing JSNLF trained infiltrators/sabateurs with weaponry for several weeks prior to the invasion date. Members of the Japanese Consulate in Honolulu could have arranged signal lights at night and co-ordinated meetings between IJN submarines and some of the 400+ Oahu fishing sampans operated by largely Japanese fishermen there. Oahu's road and railway grids were largely channeled by her twin mountain ranges onto narrow coastal "ledges" that were not at all far from the ocean and thus easy targets for sabotage in the night, US sentries or no.

[glenn239]

So you have twice now typed…<snip>

Ugaki’s war diary is the source. IIRC, Ugaki was an IJN logistics expert. In any event, his command was the premiere authority in the Japanese navy as to what was and was not logistically possible for the Japanese navy.

[robdab]

glenn239, you provided,

Ugaki’s war diary is the source. IIRC, Ugaki was an IJN logistics expert. In any event, his command was the premiere authority in the Japanese navy as to what was and was not logistically possible for the Japanese navy.

Thanks. I'll try to track down a copy of "Fading Victory" unless you can suggest a better volume on the topic ?

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I sure wouldn't want to be a muslim in the US Army today. Tragic events.

A timely example of my point though, to be sure. Imagine if just 2 - 3 similar incidents had happened on Oahu, also on the morning of Dec.7'41, at the hands of just a very few radical Japanese/Americans (or Japanese suicide agents posing as same) ? The American defenders would soon have been fighting themselves, as well as any invading IJA or JSNLF.

Historically several people were shot by nervous US sentries on the night of Dec.7'41 but in light of such 5th column AND invasion (the IJA was VERY fond of night infiltration attack techniques) worries, I can imagine many "blue-on-blue" firefights in the American lines.

Could instances of utter panic have been far behind ?

[ChristopherPerrien]

x2 post deleted

[ChristopherPerrien]

[quote="robdab]
A timely example of my point though, to be sure. Imagine if just 2 - 3 similar incidents had happened on Oahu, also on the morning of Dec.7'41, at the hands of just a very few radical Japanese/Americans (or Japanese suicide agents posing as same) ? The American defenders would soon have been fighting themselves, as well as any invading IJA or JSNLF.

Historically several people were shot by nervous US sentries on the night of Dec.7'41 but in light of such 5th column AND invasion (the IJA was VERY fond of night infiltration attack techniques) worries, I can imagine many "blue-on-blue" firefights in the American lines.

Could instances of utter panic have been far behind ?

[/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote]

Lordy, Robdab,

Do you think the entire defense of Hawaii would have looked like the spoof movie "1941", how in the hell did us(U.S.) incompetent bastards ever beat them "uber-man" Japanese ?

Blue on Blue fire-fights? Utter Panic? :roll: Did that happen in the Phillpines? Guam? Wake Island? Be real and admit you just went out a very thin limb/twig with no historical examples to back it up.

And as far as the IJA being fond of night infiltration that is all fine and dandy, until you consider that the IJA had almost(none,IMO) no training for amphibious assaults and even the tiny IJM/SNLF barely managed to make a tiny assault successful on Wake the second time they tried it.

I give up; if any of you,"yahoos", think the Japanese had even a fool's chance of invading Hawaii with what they had in Dec.1941 or with the capabilities they had, then you have been living in "war-game land/ATL's/science fiction land" far too long.

Lastly/further/FWIIW, I only need note(as I have before in other topics, and have provided multi-sourced support for) that ANY large scale invasion of such an objective would have given itself away to US code -breakers; So past the "utter incompetence/panic of most things American" :roll: :roll: :roll: , the Japanese would not even have had the element of suprise, which with solelt the strictly naval/air attack on Pearl Harbor was a dimishing asset/window that would have lasted about another week (Dec14) at most. Of course, in yall's (Canadian British Zealot? /Computer?)world ,I guess the Japanese/IJN/IJA don't need the most vital/basic element of any succesful attack. Although it was the only thing that made them, successful in the first place . Welcome to "military staff-planning 101" and WWII History 100, the remedial course versions.

Yamamoto will run you out of his office, if you ever manage to build a working time-machine to go back and "help him out". Even if he does, all that might ocur with a successful invasion of Hawaii , is that every transportable asset of the Japanese Empire is stuck there and will be on an un-supportable island(except for having all the Pineapples they can eat) facing the entire wrath/strength of those incompetent/panicky Americans in 1942. Coral Sea? Midway?....Ever heard of Guadacanal? I have , I have even seen that island . Hawaii is whole lot closer to the U.S. and would make an insanely better "grand-father's story" about how we beat "Dem Japs". No offense to the honorable sons of "Nippon ",intended,just being "timely, of the times". RIP-Richard Best, my grand-pa, he jumped off the Lexington when she was going down and went on to have a full life.

Best Regards, as we all here at least share a "common interest",
Chris