Nerve gas deployed by V-1

Discussions on alternate history, including events up to 20 years before today. Hosted by Terry Duncan.
Simon Gunson
Member
Posts: 784
Joined: 23 Mar 2004, 01:25
Location: Wellington, New Zealand

Nerve gas deployed by V-1

#1

Post by Simon Gunson » 22 Oct 2010, 21:14

Commencing in August 1943 production began on Tabun-B at Dyrhrenfurth near Breslau. Tabun-B had a greater shelf life and was easier to handle than Tabun-A. Prisoners from Gross Rosen were tasked to start filling aerial bombs and artillery shells with the nerve agent. Work also commenced at a factory in Breslau on manufacture of prototypes of the V-1 and V-2 with warheads for the nerve gas.

It seems from what I have read in several sources that about the time of the July 1944 Bomb Plot against Hitler threats were conveyed to Hitler that Churchill would use Anthrax in retaliation and USA would use nuclear weapons against Dresden. This unnerved Hitler into abandoning use of Tabun-B, but what if he hadn't given in?

What if:

1) Germany used Tabun-B artillery shells against Soviets

2) Deployed Tabun-B via artillery and aerial bombs over Normandy beaches

3) Deployed Tabun-B against England by V-1 or V-2

Dave Bender
Member
Posts: 3533
Joined: 24 Apr 2006, 22:21
Location: Michigan U.S.A.

The Allies Retaliate in Kind

#2

Post by Dave Bender » 22 Oct 2010, 22:19

The Allies would retaliate using mustard gas. Not as deadly as Tabun but plenty bad enough.


Simon Gunson
Member
Posts: 784
Joined: 23 Mar 2004, 01:25
Location: Wellington, New Zealand

Re: Nerve gas deployed by V-1

#3

Post by Simon Gunson » 22 Oct 2010, 23:22

True they would but say for example if it was used at Normandy?

Take a read of this article:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... lions.html

German troops along the Atlantic Wall defences could easily have been equipped with gas masks and protection against mustard gas. Why weren't they prepared to use it to throw the Allies back into the sea?

User avatar
Markus Becker
Member
Posts: 641
Joined: 27 Apr 2005, 18:09
Location: Germany

Re: Nerve gas deployed by V-1

#4

Post by Markus Becker » 22 Oct 2010, 23:26

They have been there and done that in WW1. With the result of everbody getting more miserable and nobody getting an advantage. And it also helped that the Wehrmacht units that defended Normandy were apparently far less prepared for CW than the allied ones.

User avatar
Terry Duncan
Forum Staff
Posts: 6270
Joined: 13 Jun 2008, 23:54
Location: Kent

Re: Nerve gas deployed by V-1

#5

Post by Terry Duncan » 22 Oct 2010, 23:27

Anthrax and nukes are a good possibility, there were a lot of rather unpleasant weapons around to use, not just the old WWI gasses like mustard gas and phosgene. There are a few interesting details at the following site;

http://hitlernews.cloudworth.com/chemic ... f-wwII.php
Why weren't they prepared to use it to throw the Allies back into the sea?
There was an idea the allies may have developed even worse weapons already, as Germany had only started relatively late in this field after WWI. Anthrax for example could leave vast areas too dangerous to live in for years, and mass delivery over Germany was not an issue by this time in the war.

User avatar
redcoat
Member
Posts: 1361
Joined: 03 Mar 2003, 22:54
Location: Stockport, England

Re: Nerve gas deployed by V-1

#6

Post by redcoat » 22 Oct 2010, 23:37

Kiwikid wrote:It seems from what I have read in several sources that about the time of the July 1944 Bomb Plot against Hitler threats were conveyed to Hitler that Churchill would use Anthrax in retaliation and USA would use nuclear weapons against Dresden. This unnerved Hitler into abandoning use of Tabun-B, but what if he hadn't given in?
Claims that the Allies threatened Germany with anthrax and atomic weapons have no base in fact.

Dave Bender
Member
Posts: 3533
Joined: 24 Apr 2006, 22:21
Location: Michigan U.S.A.

throw the Allies back into the sea?

#7

Post by Dave Bender » 23 Oct 2010, 00:55

That's entirely possible at Normandy but then there would be hell to pay. Neither PM Churchill nor President FDR had a problem with slaughtering German civilians. The Anglo-American reply would be to dump mustard gas on major German cities like Hamburg and Berlin.

User avatar
phylo_roadking
Member
Posts: 17488
Joined: 01 May 2006, 00:31
Location: Belfast

Re: Nerve gas deployed by V-1

#8

Post by phylo_roadking » 23 Oct 2010, 16:07

Claims that the Allies threatened Germany with anthrax....have no basis in fact
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Vegetarian

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gruinard_I ... re_testing

The existence of weaponised Anthrax in the British armoury was IIRC communicated to the Germans via Switzerland in late 1942.
Last edited by phylo_roadking on 23 Oct 2010, 21:52, edited 1 time in total.
Twenty years ago we had Johnny Cash, Bob Hope and Steve Jobs. Now we have no Cash, no Hope and no Jobs....
Lord, please keep Kevin Bacon alive...

User avatar
Markus Becker
Member
Posts: 641
Joined: 27 Apr 2005, 18:09
Location: Germany

Re: Nerve gas deployed by V-1

#9

Post by Markus Becker » 23 Oct 2010, 21:47

Ohh hell, just when you think you have seen it all something like this comes around the corner. 8O
One more addition to the list of really stupid ideas.

User avatar
phylo_roadking
Member
Posts: 17488
Joined: 01 May 2006, 00:31
Location: Belfast

Re: Nerve gas deployed by V-1

#10

Post by phylo_roadking » 23 Oct 2010, 22:34

One more addition to the list of really stupid ideas
Really "really stupid"....?

Did the British have the weaponised Anthrax?

Yes

Did the British have the prepared "munitions?" (incidently, the Guinard experiment as you can see ALSO tested "conventional" ordnance for delivery...)

Yes

Did they have a thousand bombers capable of reaching Germany on a good night?

Yes

In other words - whether it would have worked or not - the Germans had to face the prospect that it had been developed, had been tested AND the British could deliver it.

Do you honestly think that THEN they'd put the British to the test??? :lol: One throw of the dice - and IF it worked, Germany was a desert.

Just like the Cold War and nuclear weapons....it's about deterrence :wink: Not use.
Last edited by phylo_roadking on 23 Oct 2010, 23:11, edited 1 time in total.
Twenty years ago we had Johnny Cash, Bob Hope and Steve Jobs. Now we have no Cash, no Hope and no Jobs....
Lord, please keep Kevin Bacon alive...

User avatar
Penn44
Banned
Posts: 4214
Joined: 26 Jun 2003, 07:25
Location: US

Re: Nerve gas deployed by V-1

#11

Post by Penn44 » 23 Oct 2010, 23:07

The Germans feared overwhelming Allied retaliation against German cities to use chemical agents.

Why the fixation on non-persistent nerve agent? Mustard is still a good gas in different situations. One, it is persistent, and two, it causes wounds that are difficult heal.
Kiwikid wrote:1) Germany used Tabun-B artillery shells against Soviets
Given that the Germans were on the defensive, in general, mustard would have been the agent of choice. However, GA could have supported local German counterattacks.
Kiwikid wrote:2) Deployed Tabun-B via artillery and aerial bombs over Normandy beaches
Mustard would have also been an effective weapon.
Kiwikid wrote:3) Deployed Tabun-B against England by V-1 or V-2
Being a volatile non-persistent agent, I don’t know whether the V-1 or V-2 would have been an effective a delivery means among other reasons.

Penn44

.
I once was told that I was vain, but I knew that vanity was a fault, so I gave it up because I have no faults.

User avatar
Markus Becker
Member
Posts: 641
Joined: 27 Apr 2005, 18:09
Location: Germany

Re: Nerve gas deployed by V-1

#12

Post by Markus Becker » 24 Oct 2010, 00:19

phylo_roadking wrote: Do you honestly think that THEN they'd put the British to the test??? :lol: One throw of the dice - and IF it worked, Germany was a desert.
And very soon later the UK would be a desert too. In 42 the LW could reach the UK just as well. So send back some of the anthrax cakes, add some CW and you are back where you were in WW1.

About deterrence, the UK had no idea the Germans had nerve gases but both the UK and Germany knew the other side had a arsenal of CW and the means to deploy them. Deterrence was already achived.

User avatar
phylo_roadking
Member
Posts: 17488
Joined: 01 May 2006, 00:31
Location: Belfast

Re: Nerve gas deployed by V-1

#13

Post by phylo_roadking » 24 Oct 2010, 00:34

About deterrence, the UK had no idea the Germans had nerve gases but both the UK and Germany knew the other side had a arsenal of CW and the means to deploy them. Deterrence was already achived.
Yes - but there's absolutely nothing wrong with copperfastening it. Either side would of course want to think/that they were the ones driving the agreement not to escalate to that level, that they were controlling the balance...not the other guy. The more rungs there are on the escalation ladder, the more the stakes are raised by the possession of ever more deadly weapons and ever more simple ways of deploying them...the higher the stakes gradually become...then the more reliable is the deterrence to even stepping on the ladder.
In 42 the LW could reach the UK just as well.
Really? Did they have the capacity to launch 1,000-bomber raids against the UK? I thought they were busier to the East...
Twenty years ago we had Johnny Cash, Bob Hope and Steve Jobs. Now we have no Cash, no Hope and no Jobs....
Lord, please keep Kevin Bacon alive...

Dave Bender
Member
Posts: 3533
Joined: 24 Apr 2006, 22:21
Location: Michigan U.S.A.

Mustard would have also been an effective weapon

#14

Post by Dave Bender » 24 Oct 2010, 01:27

If Germany is foolish or desperate enough to use chemical weapons they should wait until winter. And there's little point in waiting until December 1944. The Luftwaffe could begin dropping Tabun filled bombs at night during December 1943.

HD (Distilled Mustard) is ineffective in winter due to having a relativley high freezing point. Consequently HD is normally mixed with something like Lewisite during the winter to lower the freezing point. This helps but any Mustard gas mixture is a poor choice during cold weather.

GA (Tabun) is an entirely different matter. The freezing point is so low that you could probably use it effectively in Antarctica. Winter time temperatures would just make it more effective by making it more persistent.

User avatar
Markus Becker
Member
Posts: 641
Joined: 27 Apr 2005, 18:09
Location: Germany

Re: Nerve gas deployed by V-1

#15

Post by Markus Becker » 24 Oct 2010, 01:43

phylo_roadking wrote:
Really? Did they have the capacity to launch 1,000-bomber raids against the UK? I thought they were busier to the East...
First, the UK´s 1.000 bomber raid on Cologone included planes from the Costal Command and even OTU and still fell short of the 1.000 mark.
Second, yes the LW was busy elsewhere but trust me, if it had started raining anthrax on Germany the priorities would have changed. After all, there soon would have been nothing worth defending any more, so one can use the time one has left to turn the attacker´s coutry into a desert too.

edit: I´d get it if the Brits had played with this idea in 1940 but 42? Whatever crisis they had been in was long over.

Post Reply

Return to “What if”