April 4th, 1940. German invasion force for Narvik.

Discussions on alternate history, including events up to 20 years before today. Hosted by Terry Duncan.
User avatar
Polar bear
Member
Posts: 2543
Joined: 25 Sep 2010, 16:49
Location: Hanover, Lower Saxony

Re: April 4th, 1940. German invasion force for Narvik.

#61

Post by Polar bear » 05 Jan 2011, 18:57

hi,
sturmfxr wrote:I suppose we can sum up:
Scenario I
Jan Wellem awaits in some desolate spot around 150nm north of Narvik; 10DDs break out in the late evening of April 9th (visibility was very low); if engaged by RN, 2 DD's, lay fog, fire guns, and draw the RN upon them and go south, while the other 8 DD's proceed to Jan Wellem, refuel and either sneak south or go to "Basis Nord" in Murmansk

Scenario II
are 10-6 DD's worth more than BREMEN?
ref Scenario I
afaik, there was just not enough fuel left to go anywhere, e.g. break out of Vestfjord/engage/proceed to an unknown pos.; ERICH GIESE had just enough partially sea-water-contaminated fuel to reach Narvik. And: The whole plan falls apart if JAN WELLEM is caught by the search group with CL BIRMINGHAM and DD`s FEARLESS and HOSTILE operating off Northern Norway March 31-April 8

ref Scenario II final question
IMO yes, BREMEN was just laid up in Bremerhaven till her end in 1941

from WW one "experience" with MOEWE, GREIF, WOLF and LEOPARD, the British should have been well aware that Germany might employ "normal" looking merchantships as AMCs.

greetings, the pb
Peace hath her victories no less renowned than War
(John Milton, the poet, in a letter to the Lord General Cromwell, May 1652)

User avatar
kfbr392
Member
Posts: 540
Joined: 24 Jun 2004, 17:05
Location: Germany

Re: April 4th, 1940. German invasion force for Narvik.

#62

Post by kfbr392 » 06 Jan 2011, 12:46

Polar bear wrote:ref Scenario I
afaik, there was just not enough fuel left to go anywhere, e.g. break out of Vestfjord/engage/proceed to an unknown pos.; ERICH GIESE had just enough partially sea-water-contaminated fuel to reach Narvik. And: The whole plan falls apart if JAN WELLEM is caught by the search group with CL BIRMINGHAM and DD`s FEARLESS and HOSTILE operating off Northern Norway March 31-April 8
Point taken. I now agree, any German ship north of Trondheim will very likely be lost to British and Norwegian warships April 8th-15th or so. Thus, refuelling outside Narvik fjord is a non starter. My scenario will thus lead to the loss of all 10 DD's - as in OTL.
Polar bear wrote:ref Scenario II final question
IMO yes, BREMEN was just laid up in Bremerhaven till her end in 1941
True, of course.
Polar bear wrote:from WW one "experience" with MOEWE, GREIF, WOLF and LEOPARD, the British should have been well aware that Germany might employ "normal" looking merchantships as AMCs.
Point taken. But still, sending BREMEN with 2-4 DD's instead of just 10 DD's seems to be worth the risk.

It is my favorite scenario now:

Scenario II(b)
- as OTL, but Gruppe 1 consists of 4 DD's (not carrying troops, but instead with extra fuel tanks on deck; the convoy is thus able to cruise at 25-27 knots) and Liner BREMEN (carrying not 2000, but a full regiment 3000-3500 Gebirgsjäger and a great number of ammo, supplies and equipment).
- when passing Bodo, 3 DD's speed ahead into the fjord to defeat possible Norwegian resistance, as was done in OTL
- Bremen disembarks Gebirgsjäger in Narvik (here it is specially equipped with all life boats motorized, extra cranes, chutes etc. for this mission)
- 4 DD's refuel (two at a time) from Jan Wellem (which here is specifically equipped and trained for speedy refuelling);
- all 4 DD's depart Narvik at 2100hrs April 9th and head for Germany; the low visibilty in the night of April 9th/10th should aid their escape; their draught is likely too shallow for British mines to work on them
- BREMEN leaves together with the 4 DD's if unloading is complete by 2100hrs on April 9th and runs alone to Basis Nord (again!) in Murmansk (since its chances of getting back to Germany at this point are very, very slim); otherwise it keeps unloading through the night in Narvik until the Royal Navy shows up, then it is carefully sunk by own crew in shallow waters with hopes to be recovered a year or so later (small hope that is)

Risk is: if BREMEN is sunk on the way up to Narvik (it is a big target), then no April 9th occupation of Narvik is possible. Narvik will then have to be taken months later by troops going up from Drontheim. What would the impact of that scenario be?


User avatar
phylo_roadking
Member
Posts: 17488
Joined: 01 May 2006, 00:31
Location: Belfast

Re: April 4th, 1940. German invasion force for Narvik.

#63

Post by phylo_roadking » 06 Jan 2011, 18:40

Scenario II(b)
- as OTL, but Gruppe 1 consists of 4 DD's (not carrying troops, but instead with extra fuel tanks on deck; the convoy is thus able to cruise at 25-27 knots) and Liner BREMEN (carrying not 2000, but a full regiment 3000-3500 Gebirgsjäger and a great number of ammo, supplies and equipment).
This means they are frighteningly vulnerable in the event of being intercepted by anything 8O Troops need to be (were in many historical cases in WWII) carried right down on lower decks when transported by destroyer, to re-trim them for speed and manouverability. This is why there were huge losses of life in evacuation destroyers when sunk off Dunkirk and Crete - it just wasn't possible for those hundreds of men to get out of sinking destroyers :( Here, however - as well as the detrimental effects on the destroyers' sea manners (already questionable in heavy seas), fuel transported on deck is open to fire risk, splinter risk....even the risk of breaking free in heavy seas (IIRC one KM destroyer had her hull stoved in by heavy seas off Norway!)
- Bremen disembarks Gebirgsjäger in Narvik (here it is specially equipped with all life boats motorized, extra cranes, chutes etc. for this mission)
Tbis is actually quite a major undertaking; cranes need strengthened decking or footers etc, sometimes down several decks' in depth depending on the weight they are supposed to bear.
- BREMEN leaves together with the 4 DD's if unloading is complete by 2100hrs on April 9th and runs alone to Basis Nord (again!) in Murmansk (since its chances of getting back to Germany at this point are very, very slim);
Her chances of reaching Murmansk are equally low; a vessel of this size and type is going to be as remarked upon going on north as she would have been heading TO Narvik in the first place; the RN is likely to send something after her...
otherwise it keeps unloading through the night in Narvik until the Royal Navy shows up, then it is carefully sunk by own crew in shallow waters with hopes to be recovered a year or so later (small hope that is)
I'm not sure the events of First Narvik would allow her crew time and leisure to do anything "carefully" :lol:
Risk is: if BREMEN is sunk on the way up to Narvik (it is a big target), then no April 9th occupation of Narvik is possible. Narvik will then have to be taken months later by troops going up from Drontheim. What would the impact of that scenario be?
Simple! The British do exactly what they had long planned to do! Those four cruisers in the Firth of Forth and the other two loading troops and materiel in the Clyde land the British occupation force for Narvik there on the 9th-10th.

That's what those troops were doing on those cruisers as of the 7th-8th...waiting for some German reaction to WILFRED to allow them to "react" and carry out their longstanding (and much discussed) occupation of Narvik-Kiruna-Gallivare :wink:
Twenty years ago we had Johnny Cash, Bob Hope and Steve Jobs. Now we have no Cash, no Hope and no Jobs....
Lord, please keep Kevin Bacon alive...

Dave Bender
Member
Posts: 3533
Joined: 24 Apr 2006, 22:21
Location: Michigan U.S.A.

Liners might be more prone to submarine attack

#64

Post by Dave Bender » 06 Jan 2011, 19:35

Narvik was a very high risk operation for Germany. A successful submarine attack on a passenger liner steaming at 25 or so knots would be the least of their worries.

User avatar
phylo_roadking
Member
Posts: 17488
Joined: 01 May 2006, 00:31
Location: Belfast

Re: April 4th, 1940. German invasion force for Narvik.

#65

Post by phylo_roadking » 06 Jan 2011, 20:39

A successful submarine attack on a passenger liner steaming at 25 or so knots would be the least of their worries.
Er....surely that would depend on when in her voyage the Bremen was sunk? :lol: If on the outward leg, resulting in the loss of the landing force - then it becomes a very major worry!
Twenty years ago we had Johnny Cash, Bob Hope and Steve Jobs. Now we have no Cash, no Hope and no Jobs....
Lord, please keep Kevin Bacon alive...

User avatar
LWD
Member
Posts: 8618
Joined: 21 Sep 2005, 22:46
Location: Michigan

Re: April 4th, 1940. German invasion force for Narvik.

#66

Post by LWD » 06 Jan 2011, 21:40

Especially sense she's got to go through areas that were patrolled by British subs.

Dave Bender
Member
Posts: 3533
Joined: 24 Apr 2006, 22:21
Location: Michigan U.S.A.

go through areas that were patrolled by British subs

#67

Post by Dave Bender » 06 Jan 2011, 23:19

The Narvik landing force had to steam through areas patrolled by dozens of RN surface warships. RN subs were a threat but not to the same extent as runing into a RN cruiser task force or one of the newly laid British minefields.

User avatar
phylo_roadking
Member
Posts: 17488
Joined: 01 May 2006, 00:31
Location: Belfast

Re: April 4th, 1940. German invasion force for Narvik.

#68

Post by phylo_roadking » 06 Jan 2011, 23:45

The Narvik landing force had to steam through areas patrolled by dozens of RN surface warships.
That's strange - I thought it was you, Dave, that posted up initially about the Scharnhorst and Geneisenau decoying the Renown and its destroyer group away out to sea...which is most definitely NOT the same thing as the Royal Navy missing them! As noted before - the Renown and its destroyers found the KM...

This last part of the trip was the ONLY time the Narvik force steamed through areas "patrolled" by the RN. As noted before, several flotillas of destroyers were off the Norwegian coast mining, with escort; the Home Fleet was at sea in strength but only after the KM was sighted from the air steaming north.
Twenty years ago we had Johnny Cash, Bob Hope and Steve Jobs. Now we have no Cash, no Hope and no Jobs....
Lord, please keep Kevin Bacon alive...

Dave Bender
Member
Posts: 3533
Joined: 24 Apr 2006, 22:21
Location: Michigan U.S.A.

Re: April 4th, 1940. German invasion force for Narvik.

#69

Post by Dave Bender » 07 Jan 2011, 18:00

Scharnhorst and Geneisenau decoying the Renown and its destroyer group away out to sea
Germany could not count on that working. The RN had enough warships to potentially maintain battleship task forces off Narvik, Trondheim, Bergen and Stavanger. With the RN BCs in reserve as reinforcement or to catch any KM ships heading into the Atlantic. The German navy plus their invasion forces would have been overwhelmed and slaughtered. That's more or less what OHL expected to happen when they wrote the Narvik invasion off as a suicide mission.

User avatar
phylo_roadking
Member
Posts: 17488
Joined: 01 May 2006, 00:31
Location: Belfast

Re: April 4th, 1940. German invasion force for Narvik.

#70

Post by phylo_roadking » 07 Jan 2011, 19:35

The RN had enough warships to potentially maintain battleship task forces off Narvik, Trondheim, Bergen and Stavanger.
Did they really....in Home waters? Might be a good idea if you checked their many and various locations as of the 7th/8th/9th of April 1940 :wink: (didn't I suggest that many pages ago?)
With the RN BCs in reserve as reinforcement or to catch any KM ships heading into the Atlantic
The RN never ever wanted to have to CATCH KM surface raiders/warships heading into the Atlantic....for "a stern chase is a long chase" and there was EVERY chance that the KM could get into the convoy lanes and wreak havoc BEFORE their pursuers could catch them. That was why, a year later, the Battle of the Denmark Strait was such a disaster; not just the loss of the Hood, but because the Bismarck made it into the open Atlantic and required extreme panic measures by the Admialty to gather a force from all over the shop and box her in.

Instead - their constant intention was to keep the KM bottled up in the North Sea if humanly possible.
Twenty years ago we had Johnny Cash, Bob Hope and Steve Jobs. Now we have no Cash, no Hope and no Jobs....
Lord, please keep Kevin Bacon alive...

John T
Member
Posts: 1206
Joined: 31 Jan 2003, 23:38
Location: Stockholm,Sweden

Re: April 4th, 1940. German invasion force for Narvik.

#71

Post by John T » 07 Jan 2011, 23:34

phylo_roadking wrote:
Could you explain the difference between an Armed Merchant cruiser like HMS Rawalpindi and a passenger liner?
No. Why would I? Why would I explain the difference between a BRITISH armed merchant cruiser and a pasenger liner?

What I WILL do is illustrate the difference between what the GERMANS used as armed merchant cruisers and passenger liners.
Early April 1940 no German AMC had been seen by RN since the last war.
And given Germany during WW1 used both freighters and passenger liners as AMC I would say that your argumentation is based on pure hindsight.
So why don't use Bremen when they did use KRONPRINZ WILHELM and KAISER WILHELM DER GROßE ?
phylo_roadking wrote:
If I understands you correct, RN would like to track her down before entering the atlantic but they would most probably look far too West.
John, the RN had the Renown's battlegroup in the North Sea...AND separately the Home Fleet, AND the "central" minelaying flotilla...as well as No.204 squadron Coastal Command flying Sunderland sorties over the eastern North Sea. Historically, Forbes took the Home Fleet back to the orkneys to refuel after the Scharnhorst/Gneisenau group made contact with Renown. The RN's "net" spread out to catch the large German ships moving north worked...
:)
It just failed to maintain contact with the BC's for more than a few hours and missed the whole invasion.
phylo_roadking wrote:
Does you seriously question if Bremen could manovre up the ofotfjord?
Avoided the minefield?
are you serious ?
Actually - yes.

1/ The RN laid their minefields in the Channel etc. so that their destroyers could manouver IN them safely; they were to stop deeper-draught vessels and submarines.
What is your source to this ?
I am very interested for details.
phylo_roadking wrote: 3/ Narvik basin was already quite crowded when the Germans arrived, as I noted before.
The morning of the German attack four Norwegian steamers were anchored in Narvik; the 4,285 g.r.t. Cate B, the 1,712 g.r.t. Eldrid, the 1,758 g.r.t. Haalegg and the 4,306 g.r.t. Saphir. In addition to the Norwegian vessels four foreign neutral ships were present; a 951 g.r.t. Dutch steamer, the Bernisse, and the three Swedish steamships Boden of 4,264 g.r.t., Oxelosund pf 5,613 g.r.t.and Strassa of 5,603 g.r.t.. As well as neutral ships the warring parties had vessels at Narvik, riding anchor in the same port. The British had five steamers in the harbour; the 6,582 g.r.t. Blythmoor, the 5,141 g.r.t. Mersington Court, the 4,304 g.r.t. North Cornwall, the 5,378 g.r.t. Riverton and the 4,887 g.r.t. Romanby. As the German armada seized Narvik there were 11 German merchant steamers at the port town; the 6,388 g.r.t. Aachen, the 5,398 g.r.t. Altona, the 4,902 g.r.t. Bockenheim, the 5,386 g.r.t. Hein Hoyer, the 4,879 g.r.t. Martha Henrich Fisser, the 8,096 g.r.t. Neuenfels, the 5,806 g.r.t. Odin , the 7,849 g.r.t. Lippe, the 4,339 g.r.t. Frielinghaus and the 5,881 g.r.t.Planet and the 11,776 g.r.t. replenishment oiler/maintenance ship Jan Wellem. Jan Wellem, a converted former whale factory ship, awaited the arrival of the German warships, which she was tasked to refuel. Working in the harbour were the Swedish tugs Diana (213 tons) and Styrbjörn (167 tons). As the German destroyers entered the harbour the captain of the Bockenheim, who assumed that the intruding warships were British, beached and scuttled his vessel. In total 25 ore ships had been riding at anchor in Narvik at the outset of the fighting, 10 of which were German
Even the Jan Wellem, the largest ship there, was only half the length of the Bremen...
Still Narvik is situated on a peninsula and had a spacious entrance compared with most harbours in England and Germany . The Inner harour is just the south side of Narvik, a number of ships where at anchor on the north side.
But I haven't found a complete map on where the ships where anchored on the Morning of April 9.

But it looks like you can't berth her at a quay in 1940. Note that almost all British ships off loading in harstad also had to be transshipped into smaller vessels and then landed.

This map don't show up as a image, but just click on the URL (wikipedia does something)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:UK-NWE-Norway-2.jpg

the Ore quay from Eastern shore
Image

The Harbour from Southern shore:
Image

User avatar
phylo_roadking
Member
Posts: 17488
Joined: 01 May 2006, 00:31
Location: Belfast

Re: April 4th, 1940. German invasion force for Narvik.

#72

Post by phylo_roadking » 08 Jan 2011, 00:14

Early April 1940 no German AMC had been seen by RN since the last war.
Actually, the RN spent many years expecting the Germans to carry out the same tactics as WWI...armed merchant cruisers/commerce raiders, surface raiders, submarine warfare. They'd seen at least two of the three - in detail - since the outbreak of the war.

While its true they hadn't yet seen armed merchant cruisers acting as commerce raiders - the Pinguin and others weren't to sortie unti June 15th 1940 at the earliest - they HAD seen at least one armed merchant cruiser close up, along with its 3 × 15 cm (5.9 in) L/48 C36 guns, 2 × 3.7 cm (1.5 in) Flak, 4 × 2 cm (0.79 in) Flak and 8 × machine guns...

It was called the Altmark :wink:
It just failed to maintain contact with the BC's for more than a few hours and missed the whole invasion.
That's not the point at question; my answer was in reply to the issue of whether or not the British would intercept the Scharnhorst/Gneisenau - and the answer is YES, given that the Home Fleet remained on station UNTIL that force was intercepted. Only then did Forbes give the orders for it to return to Sullam Voe for refuelling.
1/ The RN laid their minefields in the Channel etc. so that their destroyers could manouver IN them safely
What is your source to this ?
We shall fight on the Beaches, Brian Lavery and In Which They Served;The Royal Navy Officer Experience in the Second World War by the same author.
But I haven't found a complete map on where the ships where anchored on the Morning of April 9.
Nor have I - but a number of the eleven ore ships sunk were sunk at their moorings at the Iron Quay by Warburton-Lee's destroyers a day later it would appear...

Image

...which would seem to indicate that Dietl hadn't seen any merit in clearing the Quay for the KM destroyers to disembark at. It doesn't really seem useable for disembarking personnel and cargo. Here's a modern map of the remaining wrecks in the Basin -

Image

I assume those obscuring the Iron Quay were eventually removed to allow the facilities to be used again. Their temporary presence there would have been one of the main reasons for Narvik shipping far less ore in 1941, as we discussed elsewhere...
Twenty years ago we had Johnny Cash, Bob Hope and Steve Jobs. Now we have no Cash, no Hope and no Jobs....
Lord, please keep Kevin Bacon alive...

User avatar
phylo_roadking
Member
Posts: 17488
Joined: 01 May 2006, 00:31
Location: Belfast

Re: April 4th, 1940. German invasion force for Narvik.

#73

Post by phylo_roadking » 08 Jan 2011, 00:43

Pertinent to the above....

John, in the meantime I've also found THIS pic, dated April 9th 1940...

Image

...showing how the KM had to use the facilities at Narvik; as you can see hardly useable by a ship the size of the Bremen! 8O

There's also THIS famous pic of the operation, the KM at that pier from another viewpoint; as you can see, the position of a number of other vessels can be seen in the background - with one wreck ALREADY making the approach to the pier the KM used unfeasible for a large passenger liner!

Image

Apart from anything else - if that wreck is sitting on the bottom, as are the ones in the pic I posted previously...might the smaller piers at Narvik have been in too shallow water for the Bremen??? 8O
Twenty years ago we had Johnny Cash, Bob Hope and Steve Jobs. Now we have no Cash, no Hope and no Jobs....
Lord, please keep Kevin Bacon alive...

John T
Member
Posts: 1206
Joined: 31 Jan 2003, 23:38
Location: Stockholm,Sweden

Re: April 4th, 1940. German invasion force for Narvik.

#74

Post by John T » 08 Jan 2011, 00:59

phylo_roadking wrote:
While its true they hadn't yet sem armed merchant cruisers acting as commerce raiders - the Pinguin and others weren't to sortie unti June 15th 1940 at the earliest - they HAD seen at least one armed merchant cruiser close up, along with its 3 × 15 cm (5.9 in) L/48 C36 guns, 2 × 3.7 cm (1.5 in) Flak, 4 × 2 cm (0.79 in) Flak and 8 × machine guns...

It was called the Altmark :wink:
:wink:
When where Altmark equipped with those guns...?
In Texas USA 1939 or After returning to Germany in 1940 ?
:wink: :wink:
And why would you call Altmark an Armed Merchant cruiser?

phylo_roadking wrote:
It just failed to maintain contact with the BC's for more than a few hours and missed the whole invasion.
That's not the point at question; my answer was in reply to the issue of whether or not the British would intercept the Scharnhorst/Gneisenau - and the answer is YES, given that the Home Fleet remained on station UNTIL that force was intercepted. Only then did Forbes give the orders for it to return to Sullam Voe for refuelling.
Neither home Fleet or the cruisers found the German task force when moving North.
I don't understand what you mean by "given that the Home Fleet remained on station UNTIL that force was intercepted"
I can't understand your point - Home fleet detatched some destroyers to Sullam Voe but did not end looking for the Germans.
Image
and
Image

phylo_roadking wrote:
1/ The RN laid their minefields in the Channel etc. so that their destroyers could manouver IN them safely
What is your source to this ?
We shall fight on the Beaches, Brian Lavery and In Which They Served;The Royal Navy Officer Experience in the Second World War by the same author.
So that isn't any specific data regarding Minelaying outside Ofotfjord then ?

phylo_roadking wrote: ...which would seem to indicate that Dietl hadn't seen any merit in clearing the Quay for the KM destroyers to disembark at. I/quote]
Of course not as the Destroyers easily could use other piers.
phylo_roadking wrote: It doesn't really seem useable for disembarking personnel and cargo.
Yes but my photo seems to be older, the official site in Norwegian say's the the wooden pier where pulled down in 1907, and 1931 the new concrete pier where ready.
http://www.narvikhavn.no/artikkel.asp?hkat=1&akat=9

Cheers
/John

User avatar
phylo_roadking
Member
Posts: 17488
Joined: 01 May 2006, 00:31
Location: Belfast

Re: April 4th, 1940. German invasion force for Narvik.

#75

Post by phylo_roadking » 08 Jan 2011, 01:52

So that isn't any specific data regarding Minelaying outside Ofotfjord then ?
Apart from what we already know from naval-history.net, that after the Scharnhorst/Gneisenau encouter, Renown detached four of her destroyer group to return to Vestfjord and specifically guard/operate in the minefield there :wink:
...which would seem to indicate that Dietl hadn't seen any merit in clearing the Quay for the KM destroyers to disembark at.
Of course not as the Destroyers easily could use other piers.
1/ true, of course they could, but not the Bremen - which is the point.

2/ Look at the second pic from "April 9th" Am I right in thinking that pier they DID use hisotrically is just beside the Iron Quay? If that's correct - then by April 9th as we can see there is ALREADY one wreck partly blocking the approach to the Iron Quay by a vessel the size of the Bremen...
Yes but my photo seems to be older, the official site in Norwegian say's the the wooden pier where pulled down in 1907, and 1931 the new concrete pier where ready.
Yes - the one with several sunk ore ships beside it after the 10th of April, as per the pic I posted.
Neither home Fleet or the cruisers found the German task force when moving North.
I don't understand what you mean by "given that the Home Fleet remained on station UNTIL that force was intercepted"
I can't understand your point - Home fleet detatched some destroyers to Sullam Voe but did not end looking for the Germans
First of all, I'm not talking about ALL the "Home Fleet" just the following battelgroup operating directly under Adm. Forbes - Admiral Forbes (C-in-C Home Fleet) in battleship Rodney with Valiant, battlecruiser Repulse, light cruisers Sheffield, Penelope, French Emile Bertin, destroyers Eskimo, Punjabi, Bedouin, Kimberley, Jupiter, Codrington (D.1), Griffin, Brazen, Escapade and Electra departed Scapa Flow at 2015/7th.

Two crusier squadrons had already been detached to Rosyth and the Clyde, three flotillas of destroyers were operating off the Norwegian coast laying fake and real minefields, Renown and Birmingham had been detached to cover them closer to shore, the CLs Galatea and Arethusa and eleven destoyers had been sent to sweep the Norwegian coast north of Trondhiem but after the northern force had already passed by the area before they got there. Repulse, CL Penelope and four destroyers were also later detached from Forbe's force to formate with Renown off Vestfjord (as I mentioned before)....

At THIS point as the maps show, Forbes remaining force (generously called "Home Fleet" on the maps 'cos Forbes was flying his flag on the Rodney) turned round and steamed south as we can see on the maps to join Manchester and Southampton off the southern coast of Norway in reaction to word of more German shipping transitting the Skaggerak - but this was AFTER the Repulse battlegroup had been detached/ordered to formate with Renown.

It was AFTER this point - when the Renown (not yet formated with the Repulse etc.) early on the morning of the 9th engaged the Scharnhorst/Gneisenau - that "Home Fleet" was joined by the two detached cruiser groups and their accompanying destroyers that had hastily disembarked their Army cargoes...and after THAT -
Late on the 9th, Admiral Forbes ordered all his light cruisers and most of his destroyers to return to Scapa Flow or Sullom Voe for refuelling. The last units arrived about noon on the 11th. At 1530/10th, light cruisers Sheffield, Glasgow, Manchester, Southampton and destroyers Afridi, Somali (D.6), Codrington (D.1), Mohawk, Mashona, Jupiter, Brazen, Escapade and Electra arrived at Sullom Voe foe refuelling. Light cruisers Birmingham refuelled at Scapa Flow, Aurora at Rosyth, and Galatea and Arethusa refuelled, all on the 11th. French large destroyers Tartu and Maille Breze arrived at Scapa Flow with the British cruiser force at 1900/10th.
He had already detached light cruisers Southampton, Manchester, Sheffield and Glasgow and seven destroyers towards Bergen early on the 9th for a few hours until he had to order them back to Scapa! By THIS point, because of the various detachments and the above return of ALL his force's remaining CLs and most of his destroyers for refuelling, all that remained at sea under his direct command were the Rodney, the Valiant and a couple of destroyers.
Twenty years ago we had Johnny Cash, Bob Hope and Steve Jobs. Now we have no Cash, no Hope and no Jobs....
Lord, please keep Kevin Bacon alive...

Post Reply

Return to “What if”