Focus on the Mediterranean and Africa

[Torretta13]

A simple question from a simple mind: If Hitler had dedicated ALL of the resources, which he earmarked for Barbarossa, to: 1-Closing off the Mediterranean to Allied Shipping AND 2-Driving the British out of North Africa and the Middle East
is there anyway he would not have won the war???

Now you are asking: "But Doug, how could have have closed off the Mediterranean to the British?"

Doug says: By forcing Franco's hand. Yes, yes, I know Franco stonewalled him at Hendaye, BUT are you seriously telling me that Franco could have done jacksh*t to oppose Hitler had der Fuhrer (sorry, no umlaut) insisted that Spain grant Germany the right of transit, so as to close off the Strait of Gibraltar to the British? The German war machine was unstoppable, and Spain was still emerging from its disastrous civil war. What could Franco have done if Hitler had just said, "Fine, don't enter the war on our side, but we WILL be deploying forces across your country, so you are going to have to live with it." Oppose him militarily? Okay, sure..that would have lasted all of 10 seconds.

Now, as far as driving the British out of North Africa..hell, Rommel gave them all they could handle with nothing but a few Panzers and some flunky Italians at his disposal. Imagine if he would have been granted the resources allocated to Barbarossa! The Germans would have owned all of North Africa, and would have easily driven through Jordan, Syria, Iran, Iraq, etc. "There's oil in dem hills, boys......and the Germans woulda OWNED it." Is anyone going to seriously contradict me here? Or am I spot on in my assessment of the military situation prior to the invastion of Russia? Please, let me know. The Germans could have won this war soooooo easily, fellas.


[Title changes from "Guys, please help...seriously, please" /Marcus]

[Christoph Awender]

Waah you are right it would have been so easy!! And all these amateurish, german military newbies didn´t see it!

[bolchevik]

Yes, you need help :
1. Hitler didnt want Franco's help because he didnt want to fight west but only east... he didnt want to fight Britishs... he only wanted peace with them but they always refused (cause they were not dumbs ).
2.Closing mediterranean sea to Britishs would not mean the end of war, because almost all traffic from India goes past South Africa.
3.Britishs were fighting in Abyssinia, and were supposed to go north after that, which meant Egypt then Near East or North Africa.
4.North Africa would not be german land because Algeria was still in French hands and Pétain would not give it to Hitler and Hitler would not asked for it to Pétain.

Greetings

[ljadw]

A simple question from a simple mind: If Hitler had dedicated ALL of the resources, which he earmarked for Barbarossa, to: 1-Closing off the Mediterranean to Allied Shipping AND 2-Driving the British out of North Africa and the Middle East
is there anyway he would not have won the war???

Now you are asking: "But Doug, how could have have closed off the Mediterranean to the British?"

Doug says: By forcing Franco's hand. Yes, yes, I know Franco stonewalled him at Hendaye, BUT are you seriously telling me that Franco could have done jacksh*t to oppose Hitler had der Fuhrer (sorry, no umlaut) insisted that Spain grant Germany the right of transit, so as to close off the Strait of Gibraltar to the British? The German war machine was unstoppable, and Spain was still emerging from its disastrous civil war. What could Franco have done if Hitler had just said, "Fine, don't enter the war on our side, but we WILL be deploying forces across your country, so you are going to have to live with it." Oppose him militarily? Okay, sure..that would have lasted all of 10 seconds.

Now, as far as driving the British out of North Africa..hell, Rommel gave them all they could handle with nothing but a few Panzers and some flunky Italians at his disposal. Imagine if he would have been granted the resources allocated to Barbarossa! The Germans would have owned all of North Africa, and would have easily driven through Jordan, Syria, Iran, Iraq, etc. "There's oil in dem hills, boys......and the Germans woulda OWNED it." Is anyone going to seriously contradict me here? Or am I spot on in my assessment of the military situation prior to the invastion of Russia? Please, let me know. The Germans could have won this war soooooo easily, fellas.


[Title changes from "Guys, please help...seriously, please" /Marcus]

The Germans would have easily driven through Jordan .....etc
There is some 5000 km desert between Tripoli and Iraq :would it be easily ?
the "etc" :would this be India,Birma,China?
And,what would the Germans do with this oil ?
If Germany had focussed on the Mediterranean,North Africa and the Middle East,they would lose the war already in 1942 .

[kenmac]

Im not sure if Franco would oppose Hitler if he did insist.
But most likely he would of allowed passage of German troops.
This would mean England declares war on Spain.
Spain would lose the Canaries in short order.
German forces could not be deployed in North Africa until the Italian disasters of late 1940 when Mussolini would allow it.
Three Panzer divisions deployed right away could bring victory in North Africa by late summer 1941.

[Gooner1]

Three Panzer divisions deployed right away could bring victory in North Africa by late summer 1941.

This belief is based on what exactly? Considering two Panzer divisions couldn't even take Tobruk in eight months.

[Dave Bender]

The German Army cannot help in this effort. It is a job for airpower.

If Germany is going to devote most of the Luftwaffe to maritime interdiction then why not just continue the highly effective night bombing campaign against English seaports? Don't attack the enemy's foot when you can go for the throat.

[kenmac]

Three Panzer divisions deployed right away could bring victory in North Africa by late summer 1941.

This belief is based on what exactly? Considering two Panzer divisions couldn't even take Tobruk in eight months.

Based on the fact that in our time line the Germans only sent the 5th Light Division in February and the 15 Panzer in May.
Earlier deployment of 3-4 Panzer divisions would make for a very different result.

[Gooner1]

Based on the fact that in our time line the Germans only sent the 5th Light Division in February and the 15 Panzer in May.
Earlier deployment of 3-4 Panzer divisions would make for a very different result.

A very different result for Tobruk? Or do you expect these magically transported panzer divisions to race 1,500 miles to breakthrough at Alamein?

[kenmac]

Based on the fact that in our time line the Germans only sent the 5th Light Division in February and the 15 Panzer in May.
Earlier deployment of 3-4 Panzer divisions would make for a very different result.

A very different result for Tobruk? Or do you expect these magically transported panzer divisions to race 1,500 miles to breakthrough at Alamein?

It dosnt take magic to move that many divsions to Libya nor to supply them.
Getting them to Alamein (if the British choose to stop there) was managed in OTL.

[ljadw]

If you would consult the thread of "the North African Railways" you would not claim (with a sureness bordering on haughtiness ,and equalizing on ignorance of logistics) that
"it doesn't take magic to move that many divisions to Libya nor to supply them "

[ljadw]

for those interested in the logistics of the AK,see the following source:
Logistics and the Desert Fox (by major J.Hatton of the USMC)

[kenmac]

If you would consult the thread of "the North African Railways" you would not claim (with a sureness bordering on haughtiness ,and equalizing on ignorance of logistics) that
"it doesn't take magic to move that many divisions to Libya nor to supply them "

But historic reality proves it did not.

[kenmac]

for those interested in the logistics of the AK,see the following source:
Logistics and the Desert Fox (by major J.Hatton of the USMC)

Funny the same book says 4 Panzer divisions could be supported.

[ljadw]

Quote ,please ?