Which aircraft could be adapted easier for long range naval

[stg 44]

Junkers Ju 89 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Dornier Do 19 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Junkers Ju 290 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Luftwaffe had two military aircraft in 1936 that could have continued development for other roles like long range naval reconnaissance, which the late FW200 filled badly. Historically the Ju89 was developed into the Ju290 after several detours, demonstrating that it could have been done and produced a much more effective aircraft than the Fw200.

So of the two potential options in 1936 that could have continued development, which had more potential, the Ju89 or Do19?
The Ju89 was heavier, but seemed to require less development of the fuselage, nose, and tail, but had a much higher weight and and larger wing, while also requiring more fuel tanks for increased range.

The Do19 had a smaller fuselage, lower weight, and smaller wings, but clearly needed a larger fuselage for more fuel tanks and better payload, a more aerodynamic tail and nose, while only having been provided with very low powered engines.

Both types had room for development, but which could have been operational by June 1940 with the best performance?

[Trackhead M2]

Junkers Ju 89 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Dornier Do 19 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Junkers Ju 290 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Luftwaffe had two military aircraft in 1936 that could have continued development for other roles like long range naval reconnaissance, which the late FW200 filled badly. Historically the Ju89 was developed into the Ju290 after several detours, demonstrating that it could have been done and produced a much more effective aircraft than the Fw200.

So of the two potential options in 1936 that could have continued development, which had more potential, the Ju89 or Do19?
The Ju89 was heavier, but seemed to require less development of the fuselage, nose, and tail, but had a much higher weight and and larger wing, while also requiring more fuel tanks for increased range.

The Do19 had a smaller fuselage, lower weight, and smaller wings, but clearly needed a larger fuselage for more fuel tanks and better payload, a more aerodynamic tail and nose, while only having been provided with very low powered engines.

Both types had room for development, but which could have been operational by June 1940 with the best performance?

Dear stg,
I have a reproduction card game: Squadron Scramble, a rummy style card game where you make tricks from collecting the silhouette cards of aircraft. One of the Axis aircraft is a Dornier Flying Boat. Was this aircraft some how lacking compared to a Sunderland or PBY?
Strike Swiftly,
TH-M2

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Flying boats have serious limitations as to payload for bombing ships and are more vulnerable to defensive fire from ships. They can be less suitable to longer range missions as they are not able to carry the same radar spotting equipment and are limited in winter where they can be based and land.

[Trackhead M2]

Flying boats have serious limitations as to payload for bombing ships and are more vulnerable to defensive fire from ships. They can be less suitable to longer range missions as they are not able to carry the same radar spotting equipment and are limited in winter where they can be based and land.

Dear stg,
The reconnaisance mission is to see the enemy, report what you see, and not get killed before you can report. The Sunderland and the PBY carried out the mission well. The PBY was able to land with wheels instead of its hull. There were land based PBYs at Ford Island on December 7, 1941. It was an aircrew flying the PBY that spotted the Bismarck, another spotted the Kido Butai on its way to Midway. You may need to do more research. Your reply suggests that your are thinking of some more combative role than long range reconnaisance. Also, the PBY and Sunderland did the job ruining U-Boat's days.
Strike Swiftly,
TH-M2

[phylo_roadking]

TH, you made my point for me; the Condor was fine for reconnaissance...it was as a maritime "patrol bomber" it was poor; THIS...

Flying boats have serious limitations as to payload for bombing ships and are more vulnerable to defensive fire from ships.

...was the Fw200's problem!

There was also a small "cause-and-effect" loop that afected the Condor; because it had been so successful as a maritime attack aircraft for a time, the Allies developed capabilities against it - camships, MAC ships, escort carriers...

Perhaps if it had been restricted to a reconnaissance role from the beginning, they wouldn't have moved SO fast (!!!) to counter it!

[phylo_roadking]

P.S. you're forgetting something...

The Luftwaffe had two military aircraft in 1936 that could have continued development for other roles like long range naval reconnaissance, which the late FW200 filled badly. Historically the Ju89 was developed into the Ju290 after several detours, demonstrating that it could have been done and produced a much more effective aircraft than the Fw200.

So of the two potential options in 1936 that could have continued development, which had more potential, the Ju89 or Do19?

"In 1936" Germany had no requirement for nor could foresee needing a deep-ocean naval recce aircraft It had a suitable range of flyingboats and seaplanes on its books or on the stocks for patrolling the Baltic and the North Sea, its then areas of interest. With a navy that was STILL a shadow of its former self...there was no way they could expect to need or plan for a maritime reccce aircraft able to operate in the North and Mid-Atlantic from North Germany.

Given that the need ONLY arose in the Spring of 1940 with the defeat of France (and Norway)....what they DID manage to produce from a standing start was suprising.

[stg 44]

P.S. you're forgetting something...

The Luftwaffe had two military aircraft in 1936 that could have continued development for other roles like long range naval reconnaissance, which the late FW200 filled badly. Historically the Ju89 was developed into the Ju290 after several detours, demonstrating that it could have been done and produced a much more effective aircraft than the Fw200.

So of the two potential options in 1936 that could have continued development, which had more potential, the Ju89 or Do19?

"In 1936" Germany had no requirement for nor could foresee needing a deep-ocean naval recce aircraft It had a suitable range of flyingboats and seaplanes on its books or on the stocks for patrolling the Baltic and the North Sea, its then areas of interest. With a navy that was STILL a shadow of its former self...there was no way they could expect to need or plan for a maritime reccce aircraft able to operate in the North and Mid-Atlantic from North Germany.

Given that the need arose in the Spring of 1940....what they DID manage to produce from a standing start was suprising.

The Luftwaffe recognized the need at least by 1938 when they ordered military versions of the FW200, just as the Japanese did. There was still a need for a long range offensive reconnaissance aircraft (yes, I didn't fit that in the title) for the North Sea area which was recognized earlier, in 1937 IIRC. By that time Wever had died so the development of the Ju89 and Do19 had ceased, while the He177, which was expected to take that role, was still very far away from being operational and was potentially about to be cancelled by Udet. Hypothetically if both projects weren't totally killed by 1937 then it is conceivable that one of them could have been adapted to fill the role that the Fw200 was called on to.

[phylo_roadking]

The Luftwaffe recognized the need at least by 1938 when they ordered military versions of the FW200, just as the Japanese did.

Really? What Tank designed in late 1938 was a Condor with 60% more fuel (carried in tanks in the passenger compartment), provision for 4,409lb of cameras, flares, markers, dinghies and other mission equipment for a recce aircraft - not a prtrol bomber.

Jeschonnek ordered Edgar Petersen to form a longrange patrol unit in the spring of 1939...whoch would of course eventually become KG 40...and the C-series militarised aircraft (as it had become) was not offered TO the Luftwaffe/RLM until August 1939...and were only made available just before WESERUBUNG in April 1940.

In other words - it was created like the DeHavilland Mosquito..."private venture" BEFORE the services knew they needed it

[stg 44]

The Luftwaffe recognized the need at least by 1938 when they ordered military versions of the FW200, just as the Japanese did.

Really? What Tank designed in late 1938 was a Condor with 60% more fuel (carried in tanks in the passenger compartment), provision for 4,409lb of cameras, flares, markers, dinghies and other mission equipment for a recce aircraft - not a prtrol bomber.

Jeschonnek ordered Edgar Petersen to form a longrange patrol unit in the spring of 1939...whoch would of course eventually become KG 40...and the C-series militarised aircraft (as it had become) was not offered TO the Luftwaffe/RLM until August 1939...and were only made available just before WESERUBUNG in April 1940.

In other words - it was created like the DeHavilland Mosquito..."private venture" BEFORE the services knew they needed it

It looks like Tank did so for the Japanese first and then the RLM decided it fit the Luftwaffe's needs too after Tank adapted it for reconnaissance. By 1939 the RLM requested that it be modified for bombs as well.

http://uboat.net/technical/fw200.htm

But as to the original question just from a technical standpoint, which of the two could have been adapted to the role had the RLM recognized a need for it in 1936?

[phylo_roadking]

The Japanese requested it militarised....AFTER the V1 prototype managed to reach the Far East on its demonstration flight in November 1938. Dai Nipon KKK ordered five for civil service - and the militarised version was secretly requested at the same time. Tank went ahead with it because he saw it could be equally useful for the Luftwaffe.

Take another look at your own reference

The Imperial Japanese Navy had expressed an interest in a long-range reconnaissance version of the Condor. Tank modified a Fw 200B-1 to create the Fw 200V10 prototype, with more fuel, three machine guns, a short ventral gondola with fore-and-aft gunner positions, and a lot of additional equipment. It was never delivered to its customer. In 1939 the Luftwaffe decided that the Fw 200 could meet its own requirement for a long-range maritime reconnaissance aircraft, and instructed Focke-Wulf to develop the Fw 200V10 into a more robust aircraft with a bomb-carrying capacity.

...after -

and the C-series militarised aircraft (as it had become) was not offered TO the Luftwaffe/RLM until August 1939

It was in turn after this step that they then requested an internal bomb bay be added to Tank's design...necessitating the gondola.

In other words - the Luftwaffe didn't ask for/see/demand/foresee the need for such an aircraft until three years after your POD. That's three years of development missed.

So of the two potential options in 1936 that could have continued development, which had more potential, the Ju89 or Do19?

The Ju89 was heavier, but seemed to require less development of the fuselage, nose, and tail, but had a much higher weight and and larger wing, while also requiring more fuel tanks for increased range.

The Do19 had a smaller fuselage, lower weight, and smaller wings, but clearly needed a larger fuselage for more fuel tanks and better payload, a more aerodynamic tail and nose, while only having been provided with very low powered engines.

Both types had room for development, but which could have been operational by June 1940 with the best performance?

Neither. The Ju86 was a twin-engined bomber in the medium class, and a flop - phased out because of unreliable engines...and the Do19 was in Wever's eyes a flop; if it couldn't even meet the Ural Bomber specs, how was it expected to reach the middle of the Atlantic???

Let's shortcircuit this debate; go look at the thread where we discussed the evolution (not!) of German heavy bombers - and why they didn't evolve a decent one in the 1930s....

Now, bear in mind that a land-based maritime patrol aircraft is one that compromises bombload in favour of range...and factor that back into ALL the previously-discussed issues regarding lack of developed engines, payload, range, etc., etc..

Germany didn't have an effective starting point in 1936. Even the Condor didn't fly until 1937...

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Neither. The Ju86 was a twin-engined bomber in the medium class, and a flop - phased out because of unreliable engines...and the Do19 was in Wever's eyes a flop; if it couldn't even meet the Ural Bomber specs, how was it expected to reach the middle of the Atlantic???

From the OP:

So of the two potential options in 1936 that could have continued development, which had more potential, the Ju89[/b] or Do19?

I stated the Ju89 four engine bomber, Ural bomber entry that later became the Ju290 NOT the Ju86. Not sure where the Ju86 came from.

The Do19 was a 'flop' because it was given the weakest powered engines possible, something the Ju89 (not Ju86) did not have to deal with, as it got the two latest engines available the Jumo211A and DB600. Its very clear that both needed further development to achieve the Ural spec, which was technically possible with further development. Wever though did NOT cancel development of these types; that happened about 6 weeks after his death. Yes, he issued the spec for the next generation of heavy bombers just as the Ural bombers were getting ready to fly, but that was common practice for all types. Look at the Me109 and the issuing of the next generation fighter spec.

But that was not the question I asked; I asked whether from a technical standpoint only either the Do19 or Ju89 (not 86) could have been developed into a long range offensive naval reconnaissance bomber from a starting point in 1936 to a end point of having an operational unit ready in June 1940. Ignoring all else but technics, is this possible and which model had the best potential?

Let's shortcircuit this debate; go look at the thread where we discussed the evolution (not!) of German heavy bombers - and why they didn't evolve a decent one in the 1930s....

I am very well aware of the whys around the bomber program, here I am simply asking from a engineering perspective which had greater development potential the Ju89 or the Do19. Right now I'm not asking how that could come about, but simply what technical potentialities were.

Now, bear in mind that a land-based maritime patrol aircraft is one that compromises bombload in favour of range...and factor that back into ALL the previously-discussed issues regarding lack of developed engines, payload, range, etc., etc..

Germany didn't have an effective starting point in 1936. Even the Condor didn't fly until 1937...

I am aware. We know that the Ju89 was eventually developed into the Ju290, which had effective range and payload after several detours and the development of higher powered engines.
However without those detours and direct development from the first flight of the prototype in 1936 to probably a 1939 production date, roughly three years later, could either have been developed enough to surpass the FW200 in ability and reliability? Again I am asking only whether it was possible from an engineering perspective, not an institutional foresight one.

[phylo_roadking]

The Ju89, when it morphed into the Ju90 DID show some potential...but not necessary the potential desired! From Wiki...

The first prototype, the Ju 90V1 was powered by four Daimler-Benz DB 600C liquid-cooled inverted V engines delivering 820 kW (1,100 hp) each. These were more powerful than both those of its Ju 89 predecessor and of production commercial Ju 90s. Named Der Grosse Dessauer, its maiden flight took place on 28 August 1937. Deutsche Luft Hansa carried out the long-distance testing. After eight months of flight tests, this prototype broke up on 6 February 1938 during over-speed tests.
A second prototype (V2) was delivered to Luft Hansa in May 1938 for testing. Like all the production commercial Ju 90s, this was powered by four BMW 132 radial engines delivering 620 kW (830 hp). The move to lower power was probably necessitated by the demands on Daimler Benz to produce engines for strategically important, front line aircraft. They named this aircraft Preussen. It crashed fatally during tropical flight tests on takeoff in November 1938 at Bathurst, Gambia, probably because of engine failure.

Yes, a militarised version WAS eventually prototyped...but look carefully -

The two last prototypes - the V7 and V8 - fed directly into the Ju 290 development programme. The former had a fuselage extension of 1.98 m (6 ft 6 in) and the addition of dihedral to the tailplane to solve a yaw instability. A reconnaissance prototype aerodynamically similar to the V7, the V8 was armed, however,with two 20 mm MG 151/20 cannons and up to nine 13 mm (.51 in) MG 131 machine guns in two dorsal, one ventral and one tail position

...but AFTER April 1939 - when the C-series Condor was on hands anyway. And there it languished, really. So even then, after all the Ju89/Ju90 development work it wasn't really satisfactory, still having problems years after it "first" flew.

[phylo_roadking]

The Do19 was a 'flop' because it was given the weakest powered engines possible, something the Ju89 (not Ju86) did not have to deal with, as it got the two latest engines available the Jumo211A and DB600. Its very clear that both needed further development to achieve the Ural spec, which was technically possible with further development. Wever though did NOT cancel development of these types; that happened about 6 weeks after his death. Yes, he issued the spec for the next generation of heavy bombers just as the Ural bombers were getting ready to fly, but that was common practice for all types. Look at the Me109 and the issuing of the next generation fighter spec.

No, the projects were cancelled after his death; he relegated them to demonstrators before his death. That meant there would be no more development on the original concept aircraft.

But that was not the question I asked; I asked whether from a technical standpoint only either the Do19 or Ju89 (not 86) could have been developed into a long range offensive naval reconnaissance bomber from a starting point in 1936 to a end point of having an operational unit ready in June 1940. Ignoring all else but technics, is this possible and which model had the best potential?

phylo_roadking wrote:
Let's shortcircuit this debate; go look at the thread where we discussed the evolution (not!) of German heavy bombers - and why they didn't evolve a decent one in the 1930s....

I am very well aware of the whys around the bomber program, here I am simply asking from a engineering perspective which had greater development potential the Ju89 or the Do19. Right now I'm not asking how that could come about, but simply what technical potentialities were.

The point is that ALL THE SAME technical considerations that prevented the development of German heavy bombers ALSO prevented the development of German heavy bomber-derived maritime patrol aircraft to start with. If neither the 89 or 19 had the necessary potential for what they were meant to do - how could they possibly in their original concepts ever have been given the stretched capabilities a maritime recce aircraft needed???

However without those detours and direct development from the first flight of the prototype in 1936 to probably a 1939 production date, roughly three years later, could either have been developed enough to surpass the FW200 in ability and reliability? Again I am asking only whether it was possible from an engineering perspective, not an institutional foresight one.

How can we know??? We DON'T know because the institutional foresight wasn't there early enough....

But see my answer immediately above about the "original concept" Ju89 and Do 19...

...and also note my previous post - even mid-war the Ju90/290 project was still experiencing major problems (and barely overcoming them) Given that - it's hardly possible that a few short years from 1936 to 1939 could have produced a silk purse out of a sow's ear - as the saying goes!

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THe problem with this is that the Ju90 just like the Condor, was not designed as a military aircraft. I'm suggesting that the Ju89 airframe, which was stable as far as I know, is further developed in the military realm, rather than being developed from a civilian aircraft that only used some parts from the original Ju89. From you wiki source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junkers_Ju_90

Deutsche Luft Hansa put a request for a long-distance commercial aircraft as early as 1933. When the Ju 89 program was abandoned, the third prototype was partially completed and at the request of Luft Hansa, it was rebuilt as an airliner, retaining the wings and tail of the original design but incorporating a new, wider passenger-carrying fuselage. The new design was designated the Ju 90.[1][2][3]

The only relation it had with the Ju89 was the wing and tail.
The Ju89 AFAIK did NOT have these problems, problems that resulted from the changing of everything but the tail and wings, which were not designed for the fuselage that they were mated to.

So, assuming that the original design is just developed into a military aircraft instead of changing the fuselage and the cockpit completely and having to rebalance the design of the wings and tail assembly after adapting it to civilian uses

[stg 44]

No, the projects were cancelled after his death; he relegated them to demonstrators before his death. That meant there would be no more development on the original concept aircraft.

According to this book the order to stop development didn't come until mid-July, about 5-6 weeks after his death:
http://www.panzersite.com/servlet/the-3 ... sh-/Detail

The order for 3 of each prototype was maintained until 1937 when the project itself was cancelled.
Its interpreted that his issuing of the Bomber A specs and lack of orders for more by the time of his death meant that he intended only to use those 6 aircraft as demonstrators, but as of the time of his death according to that book the halt order for development was only issued in July AFTER his death.