Retrospective WI. Cezch War of 1938

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BDV
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Re: Retrospective WI. Cezch War of 1938

#46

Post by BDV » 19 Feb 2013, 04:27

LJ,

Either P. Novak is incorrect about the french ultimatum to Czechia or you are. However, Paul stated a fact. Meanwhile you're going through mental contortions about eminence grises, machiaveloid machinations, and other somesuch.

Either you refute Paul's FACT or the discussion is moot.
Nobody expects the Fallschirm! Our chief weapon is surprise; surprise and fear; fear and surprise. Our 2 weapons are fear and surprise; and ruthless efficiency. Our *3* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency; and almost fanatical devotion

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Re: Retrospective WI. Cezch War of 1938

#47

Post by ljadw » 19 Feb 2013, 08:43

no:what P.Novak is saying proves nothing .
And,I don't see the need to repeat what I have said :the menace of Britain and France to CZ was as meaningless as a menace of Luxemburg .

And,I see also that you have no clue of the role and importance of H.Wilson and of the importance of his message ,and that you are sticking to the old platitudes and clichés of the western betrayal of poor CZ.

That Novak is doing this,it to expected,he is a Czech .


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Re: Retrospective WI. Cezch War of 1938

#48

Post by ljadw » 19 Feb 2013, 10:23

About the so-called ultimatum:

Letter from Newton (British ambassador in CZ) to Lord Halifax:

Hodza (PM of CZ) said that,if the proposals were delivered as a sort of ultimatum,Benes and the government would feel able to bow for force majeure.

Following the French ambassador,Hodza positively implored an ultimatum,as cover for the Czech government which wished to surrender .

Source:Newton to Halifax,20 september 1938,British Foreign Policy,third series,II,nr 979
Cited in :the origins of the second world war P 221.

If the Czechs were not willing to fight to prevent the secession of the SD ,only wanting to blame B+F,one can not reproach B+F of giving ultimatums,besides:B nor F ever had promised CZ to fight to prevent the secession of the SD.

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Re: Retrospective WI. Cezch War of 1938

#49

Post by ljadw » 19 Feb 2013, 12:52

There never was an ultimatum:it is the old story of Billy and his uncle,who had told Billy:if you have financial problems, I will help you.
Now,the moment is there,Billy goes to his uncle and receives 2 bucks,when he is asking for more (20000 $),the answer is :

1) I can't give more
2) You never said how much you would need and never asked how much you would receive
3) I never said how much I would give

And,afterwards,his uncle (and the neighbour of his uncle) are saying :now,you must do what we are telling you to do,otherwise,you never will receive the 20000 $ you are asking,and which we never promised to give ,and,of which we are not saying you will have them .

If Billy is now saying that his uncle and the neighbour are giving him an ultimatum,Billy is totally wrong .

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Re: Retrospective WI. Cezch War of 1938

#50

Post by ljadw » 19 Feb 2013, 12:53

BDV wrote:LJ,

Either P. Novak is incorrect about the french ultimatum to Czechia or you are. However, Paul stated a fact. Meanwhile you're going through mental contortions about eminence grises, machiaveloid machinations, and other somesuch.

Either you refute Paul's FACT or the discussion is moot.
He did not state a fact :he gave an interpretation.

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Re: Retrospective WI. Cezch War of 1938

#51

Post by Gooner1 » 19 Feb 2013, 13:29

ljadw wrote:About the so-called ultimatum:

Letter from Newton (British ambassador in CZ) to Lord Halifax:

Hodza (PM of CZ) said that,if the proposals were delivered as a sort of ultimatum,Benes and the government would feel able to bow for force majeure.

Following the French ambassador,Hodza positively implored an ultimatum,as cover for the Czech government which wished to surrender .
Didn't this occur only after the French Ambassador had told Hozda that if there was war France would probably not intervene?

However much you may want to emphasise the point the CzechoSlovaks could not know whether Britain and France would intervene. No-one can know that if and when Britain and France did intervene it would come in time to save CzechoSlovakia.

Betting on a timely intervention by Britain and France was a gamble. Just like it was a gamble that Hitler would be satisfied with the Sudetenland and not seek to conquer the rest of CzechoSlovakia.

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Re: Retrospective WI. Cezch War of 1938

#52

Post by ljadw » 19 Feb 2013, 14:01

Yes,there were persons convinced that what /if B+F would do;it would not stop the Germans to conquer CZ,and these people were the British chiefs of staff:

march 28 1938:

No pressure that we and our possible allies can bring to bear,either by sea,on land and in the air,could prevent Germany from invading and overrunning Bohemia and from inflicting a decisive defeat on the Czechoslovakian army.We should then be faced with the necessity of undertaking a war against Germany for the purpose of restoring Czechoslovakia's lost integrity and this object would only be achieved by the defeat of Germany and as the outcome of a prolonged struggle.


Source:Munich's lessons reconsidered P 183 Note 92


Comment from Chamberlain :and,it is unlikely that after such war,the borders of CZ will remain the same,thus :why wage war to prevent the secession of the SD?

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Re: Retrospective WI. Cezch War of 1938

#53

Post by ljadw » 19 Feb 2013, 14:07

About the gamble that Hitler would be satisfied with the SD and not seek to conquer the rest of CZ:there was no such gamble (this is a post war invention):the informed people were convinced that after Munich,the rest of CZ would follow,what more is :
in november 1937,Halifax had told Hitler that he could have Austria,CZ,Poland,etc,as long it happened without fighting and as long appearances were keeped up .

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Re: Retrospective WI. Cezch War of 1938

#54

Post by Gooner1 » 19 Feb 2013, 14:36

ljadw wrote:Yes,there were persons convinced that what /if B+F would do;it would not stop the Germans to conquer CZ,and these people were the British chiefs of staff:

march 28 1938:

No pressure that we and our possible allies can bring to bear,either by sea,on land and in the air,could prevent Germany from invading and overrunning Bohemia and from inflicting a decisive defeat on the Czechoslovakian army.We should then be faced with the necessity of undertaking a war against Germany for the purpose of restoring Czechoslovakia's lost integrity and this object would only be achieved by the defeat of Germany and as the outcome of a prolonged struggle.


Source:Munich's lessons reconsidered P 183 Note 92
Yes, yes, yes. :roll: Of course the British Chiefs of Staff were asked to prepare this report under the assumption that both Poland and the Soviet Union would remain neutral in the conflict.

Chamberlain was a consummate politician.

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Re: Retrospective WI. Cezch War of 1938

#55

Post by Gooner1 » 19 Feb 2013, 14:43

ljadw wrote:About the gamble that Hitler would be satisfied with the SD and not seek to conquer the rest of CZ:there was no such gamble (this is a post war invention):the informed people were convinced that after Munich,the rest of CZ would follow,what more is :
in november 1937,Halifax had told Hitler that he could have Austria,CZ,Poland,etc,as long it happened without fighting and as long appearances were keeped up .
Of course it was a gamble. You forget that Britain and France were supposed to guarantee the frontiers of the new Czecho-Slovakia.

BTW what job did Lord Halifax hold in November 1937?

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Re: Retrospective WI. Cezch War of 1938

#56

Post by wm » 19 Feb 2013, 16:12

ljadw wrote:Hodza (PM of CZ) said that,if the proposals were delivered as a sort of ultimatum,Benes and the government would feel able to bow for force majeure.
Milan Hodža didn't say that as the Prime Minister of Czechoslovakia but as a Slovakian separatist, and he kept his ideas secret at the time.
The Czechoslovak government-in-exile declared his actions treasonous after the truth had been revealed at the end of 1940, especially the content of the telegram sent on September, 20 1938 by the French Ambassador Delacroix on his discussions with M. Hodža.

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Re: Retrospective WI. Cezch War of 1938

#57

Post by ljadw » 19 Feb 2013, 17:39

wm wrote:
ljadw wrote:Hodza (PM of CZ) said that,if the proposals were delivered as a sort of ultimatum,Benes and the government would feel able to bow for force majeure.
Milan Hodža didn't say that as the Prime Minister of Czechoslovakia but as a Slovakian separatist, and he kept his ideas secret at the time.
The Czechoslovak government-in-exile declared his actions treasonous after the truth had been revealed at the end of 1940, especially the content of the telegram sent on September, 20 1938 by the French Ambassador Delacroix on his discussions with M. Hodža.
What the government in exile declared afterwards,is irrelevant :relevant is what the PM of CZ said in 1938.

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Re: Retrospective WI. Cezch War of 1938

#58

Post by ljadw » 19 Feb 2013, 17:40

Gooner1 wrote:
ljadw wrote:Yes,there were persons convinced that what /if B+F would do;it would not stop the Germans to conquer CZ,and these people were the British chiefs of staff:

march 28 1938:

No pressure that we and our possible allies can bring to bear,either by sea,on land and in the air,could prevent Germany from invading and overrunning Bohemia and from inflicting a decisive defeat on the Czechoslovakian army.We should then be faced with the necessity of undertaking a war against Germany for the purpose of restoring Czechoslovakia's lost integrity and this object would only be achieved by the defeat of Germany and as the outcome of a prolonged struggle.


Source:Munich's lessons reconsidered P 183 Note 92
Yes, yes, yes. :roll: Of course the British Chiefs of Staff were asked to prepare this report under the assumption that both Poland and the Soviet Union would remain neutral in the conflict.

Chamberlain was a consummate politician.
Was this assumption wrong ?

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Re: Retrospective WI. Cezch War of 1938

#59

Post by ljadw » 19 Feb 2013, 17:52

Gooner1 wrote:
ljadw wrote:About the gamble that Hitler would be satisfied with the SD and not seek to conquer the rest of CZ:there was no such gamble (this is a post war invention):the informed people were convinced that after Munich,the rest of CZ would follow,what more is :
in november 1937,Halifax had told Hitler that he could have Austria,CZ,Poland,etc,as long it happened without fighting and as long appearances were keeped up .
Of course it was a gamble. You forget that Britain and France were supposed to guarantee the frontiers of the new Czecho-Slovakia.

BTW what job did Lord Halifax hold in November 1937?
The frontiers of the new CZ did not change in 1939,what happened was that Czechia was occupied by the Germans,and,as the Czechs did not fight,why should B+F fight ?

Afaics,Halifax was Lord president of the Council in november 1937,but,even if he was Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster,Captain of the yeomen of the Guard(or an other meaningless position),the fact is that he was in Berchtesgaden as the envoy of the British government ,and,what he said in november 1937,was nothing new :immediately after Versailles,the British government had publicly manifested her desinterest for the region east of the Rhine ,by refusing to guarentee the frontiers in this region .

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Re: Retrospective WI. Cezch War of 1938

#60

Post by Gooner1 » 19 Feb 2013, 18:19

ljadw wrote: The frontiers of the new CZ did not change in 1939,what happened was that Czechia was occupied by the Germans,and,as the Czechs did not fight,why should B+F fight ?
?! Slovakia declared independence before Germany invaded Czech(land?) in March 1939. Therefore the borders Britain and France pledged to guarantee were invalid, therefore the pledge was no longer valid.

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