Italians successfully defend Tobruk during Operation Compass

[Urmel]

Here I fixed that for you.

Rommel in the OTL, with much reduced forces after the battle of Gazala, had sufficient hitting power to defeat the completely disorganised and panicked and already beaten British at Mersa Mutrah. Rommel, in this ATL, is starting with fresh full strength forces and will attack the fresh and unbeaten forces at Mersa Mutrah with more tanks than he had in the OTL In April 1941 while the British will have fewer tanks than they did at Gazala, which is completely irrelevant since it's an Apples to Oranges comparison.

[Kingfish]

Rommel, in this ATL, is starting with fresh full strength forces and will attack Mersa Mutrah with more tanks than he had in the OTL while the British will have fewer tanks than they did.

How can he be starting with fresh full tank strength if they first have to drive the 850km from Benghazi to Mersa Mutrah?

[Gooner1]

The topic "The 'lost' battle of Mersa Brega, Libyan desert, 31 March" is full of references to the miserable state of British tanks in the 2nd Armoured Division. Not all of it was because of the distance they had had to drive to replace 7th Armoured in Cryrenaica but due to the worn out state they were in when they arrived in Egypt.

Well the British tanks were a lot worse off after having to motor the 500-odd miles to Mersa Brega than if they had remained in Mersa Matruh.

Conversely the Axis tanks are going to have to motor that distance, or indeed, the 1000-odd miles all the way from Tripoli.

Giving that there was no metalled road between the Egyptian border and Mersa Matruh and assuming 2nd Armoured Divisions cruisers don't move forward they are likely to be in a much better mechanical condition than the Axis tanks.

[pugsville]

and the britsh no win this situation fight less battles and drive their tanks 800/1500 km and yet they will be these calculation have less tabs than in real life.

this is non sensical.

[Urmel]

this is non sensical.

[BDV]

A fortified enclave (Tobruk) smack atop the LOCs both east and west?

Any proof other than "it stands to reason" - which it well may, but not necessarily.

[Kingfish]

A fortified enclave (Tobruk) smack atop the LOCs both east and west?

Any proof other than "it stands to reason" - which it well may, but not necessarily.

Proof that it was a fortified enclave smack atop the LOCs both east and west?

Well...

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/CSI ... r.asp.html

[Old_Fossil]

Rommel, in this ATL, is starting with fresh full strength forces and will attack Mersa Mutrah with more tanks than he had in the OTL while the British will have fewer tanks than they did.

How can he be starting with fresh full tank strength if they first have to drive the 850km from Benghazi to Mersa Mutrah?

Just as Rommel started with full tank strength in the OTL at El Agheila he will start with full tank strength from the Tobruk area for the campaign in this ATL. And his tanks will be fresher than those of OTL Rommel because they didn't have to road march from Tripoli. Naturally he will suffer tank breakdowns. They should be fewer due to his tanks being less worn and nature of his advance being more direct (less cross-country and more road). Rommel is under no extreme time pressure to attack immediately and can afford to wait a few days before attacking Mersa Mutrah to let his tank strength return closer to full strength.

[Old_Fossil]

Here I fixed that for you.

Rommel in the OTL, with much reduced forces after the battle of Gazala, had sufficient hitting power to defeat the completely disorganised and panicked and already beaten British at Mersa Mutrah. Rommel, in this ATL, is starting with fresh full strength forces and will attack the fresh and unbeaten forces at Mersa Mutrah with more tanks than he had in the OTL In April 1941 while the British will have fewer tanks than they did at Gazala, which is completely irrelevant since it's an Apples to Oranges comparison.

I'll fix your ommissions.

Rommel in the OTL, with much reduced forces after the battle of Gazala, had sufficient hitting power to defeat the completely disorganised and panicked and already beaten British at Mersa Mutrah. Rommel, in this ATL, is starting with fresh full strength forces and will attack the fresh and unbeaten but, ineperienced, ill-trained, poorly equiped and ineptly lead forces at Mersa Mutrah with more tanks than he had in the OTL In Jun 1942 while the British will have fewer tanks than they did at Mersa Mutrah In Jun 1942. It is a very apt comparison since both battles will take place over the very same territory.

[Urmel]

Pure fantasy. please go to Armchair General.

[Old_Fossil]

Giving that there was no metalled road between the Egyptian border and Mersa Matruh and assuming 2nd Armoured Divisions cruisers don't move forward they are likely to be in a much better mechanical condition than the Axis tanks.

The British tanks are still in bad condition due to being worn out before they even reached Egypt. Consider that 1st Armoured Brigade was sent to Greece without any additional road wear from being in Egypt, was railed from Piraeus to its area of operation in northern Greece and yet still was in so bad a mechanical state they all broke down during the retreat before they reached Lamia.

[Old_Fossil]

Pure fantasy. please go to Armchair General.

All What Ifs are fantasy. What's your point?

[BDV]

Proof that it was a fortified enclave smack atop the LOCs both east and west?

No, proof that being " a fortified enclave smack atop the LOCs both east and west" was the main/key/foremost reason for the Axis actions in the Tobruk and points East in 1941.


Other reasons, too, stand to reason.

Tobruk's water well. Its port.

Or, what naysayers would say, that Mersa Matruh and points East were a bridge too far, even for a hotheaded shoestringer like Rommel.

[Urmel]

Proof that it was a fortified enclave smack atop the LOCs both east and west?

No, proof that being " a fortified enclave smack atop the LOCs both east and west" was the main/key/foremost reason for the Axis actions in the Tobruk and points East in 1941.


Other reasons, too, stand to reason.

Tobruk's water well. Its port.

Or, what naysayers would say that Mersa Matruh and points East were a bridge too far, even for a hotheaded shoestringer like Rommel.

Are you arguing with yourself?

The LOC in the desert clearly include the ports and water supplies.

And why only 'naysayers'? Fact of the matter is that Rommel did not go for even Sidi Barrani, let alone Mersa Matruh in real life. So its not just 'naysayers' who say it was a bridge too far.

[Kingfish]

Just as Rommel started with full tank strength in the OTL at El Agheila he will start with full tank strength from the Tobruk area for the campaign in this ATL.

Your WI lays out the disembarkation port as Benghazi, so unless there is a rail line from there to Tobruk the tanks of 5th light and Italian mobile corp will have to motor the full 850km to Mersa Mutrah on their own tracks.

Rommel is under no extreme time pressure to attack immediately and can afford to wait a few days before attacking Mersa Mutrah to let his tank strength return closer to full strength.

Oh, quite the contrary. Time works against Rommel far more than it benefits him in this WI.