Sweden joins axis
Re: Sweden joins axis
I dont see how it would be a disaster for Finland, The way i see it with the extra 5 divisions they could have taken Murmansk and American Lend-lease would be quite hurt, on top of that it would free Finnish troops to help take Leningrad
- Andrew
Re: Sweden joins axis
OTOH I don't see how the "evidence" supplied is evidence for anything. A sovereign government is not able to deploy its own troops to its own teritorry to prevent a "mistake" by the two large powers warring just beyond its borders?!??
An incomplete headline from some newspaper. Even Winnie had to start his address to Parl'ment by calling Stalin Satan.
An incomplete headline from some newspaper. Even Winnie had to start his address to Parl'ment by calling Stalin Satan.
Nobody expects the Fallschirm! Our chief weapon is surprise; surprise and fear; fear and surprise. Our 2 weapons are fear and surprise; and ruthless efficiency. Our *3* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency; and almost fanatical devotion
Re: Sweden joins axis
The only way I see Sweden should have joined the Axis is by a Soviet mistake bringing Sweden into the fight the same way Finland where handled during the opening of Barbarossa.
The Swedish Social democrats had majority in the fall of 1940 elections and any “adventurism” from either side where shunned by an absolute majority in the Swedish parliament. The Liberals where so absolute in their neutrality that they even opposed a Swedish intervention in Denmark in May 1945 (officially the plan where to “to maintain law and order” and unofficially to avoid a Communist takeover when the German occupation troops collapsed)
An Idea where actually proposed at that time and a bit along the reasoning in this thread where put forward by a group around Herman Göring’s father in law.They wrote a pamphlet arguing to create a “neutral Region Nordic” where Sweden/Finland would join in a union and possibly Norway could become a part of this neutral block. It was never explicit written but implicitly that the three countries aligned themselves with the new ruler of Europe . And it might be in Germany’s interest to let the three Nordic countries defend Norway. But the pamphlet where printed in June 1941 so it was too late to affect Finland and written by a group with little political influence.
So that for the political reality.
If Sweden had aligned herself politically to Germany before the war I expect Norway to lean towards Britain and if German troops were seen in Sweden the British would probably been invited to Norway.
If we on the other hand discuss military capacity Sweden would have been quite helpful at Weserübung. Even with just a ”Danish solution” Swedish railroads would simplify supplies for the Germans. Swedish airbases could be used initially with stores offloaded railcars at the nearest railway station on day one. And Swedish territory would give the theater an operational depth Norway lacked even without getting Swedish forces into the fight.
In the Long term Sweden would be able to supply Germany with skilled labor and war material in addition to the commodities actually delivered to Germany during the war. Sweden where interested of license production of German arms and would then probably build PzIV tanks , DB601- 605’s and Bf-109’s like Hungary.
Then if you could make Sweden participate in the attack and occupation of Norway:
The relative preparedness of Swedish forces compared with the Norwegian army where huge.
The list can be made long,
Sweden had twice the defense expenditure per capita of Norway,
almost twice the average conscript training time.
Three Swedish cities had each roughly the same number of guns as total Nowegian AA-artillery inventory
Swedish monthly artillery ammo production per month during winter 1940 was similar to Norwegian total inventory and so on.
Norwegian High commands own assessments where that their brigades would become combat ready three weeks after mobilization while Swedish Field regiments where expected to be combat ready within two days.
The Norwegian fortresses that did cover the Swedish border where in lousy conditions by 1940 had hardly been maintained after WWI.
And if you look at the number behind the formal designations most Norwegian infantry divisions mobilized a similar number of combat battalions as the average Swedish infantry regiment.
So if we set up a scenario where units covering the Finnish border moves towards Norwegian Border under the pretext of moving back to barracks and then attacks into the Trondheim and Narvik areas at the same time as the Germans I see little the Norwegians or the allies could have done about it.
The rail Distance from Swedish border to Narvik town is 42 kilometers winding downhill, a day’s march on ski without using the railway.
And then basing Luftwaffe Stukas at Östersund and Gällivare would make it hard for the Allies to create any form of local superiority on the ground.
Cheers
/John
The Swedish Social democrats had majority in the fall of 1940 elections and any “adventurism” from either side where shunned by an absolute majority in the Swedish parliament. The Liberals where so absolute in their neutrality that they even opposed a Swedish intervention in Denmark in May 1945 (officially the plan where to “to maintain law and order” and unofficially to avoid a Communist takeover when the German occupation troops collapsed)
An Idea where actually proposed at that time and a bit along the reasoning in this thread where put forward by a group around Herman Göring’s father in law.They wrote a pamphlet arguing to create a “neutral Region Nordic” where Sweden/Finland would join in a union and possibly Norway could become a part of this neutral block. It was never explicit written but implicitly that the three countries aligned themselves with the new ruler of Europe . And it might be in Germany’s interest to let the three Nordic countries defend Norway. But the pamphlet where printed in June 1941 so it was too late to affect Finland and written by a group with little political influence.
So that for the political reality.
If Sweden had aligned herself politically to Germany before the war I expect Norway to lean towards Britain and if German troops were seen in Sweden the British would probably been invited to Norway.
If we on the other hand discuss military capacity Sweden would have been quite helpful at Weserübung. Even with just a ”Danish solution” Swedish railroads would simplify supplies for the Germans. Swedish airbases could be used initially with stores offloaded railcars at the nearest railway station on day one. And Swedish territory would give the theater an operational depth Norway lacked even without getting Swedish forces into the fight.
In the Long term Sweden would be able to supply Germany with skilled labor and war material in addition to the commodities actually delivered to Germany during the war. Sweden where interested of license production of German arms and would then probably build PzIV tanks , DB601- 605’s and Bf-109’s like Hungary.
Then if you could make Sweden participate in the attack and occupation of Norway:
The relative preparedness of Swedish forces compared with the Norwegian army where huge.
The list can be made long,
Sweden had twice the defense expenditure per capita of Norway,
almost twice the average conscript training time.
Three Swedish cities had each roughly the same number of guns as total Nowegian AA-artillery inventory
Swedish monthly artillery ammo production per month during winter 1940 was similar to Norwegian total inventory and so on.
Norwegian High commands own assessments where that their brigades would become combat ready three weeks after mobilization while Swedish Field regiments where expected to be combat ready within two days.
The Norwegian fortresses that did cover the Swedish border where in lousy conditions by 1940 had hardly been maintained after WWI.
And if you look at the number behind the formal designations most Norwegian infantry divisions mobilized a similar number of combat battalions as the average Swedish infantry regiment.
So if we set up a scenario where units covering the Finnish border moves towards Norwegian Border under the pretext of moving back to barracks and then attacks into the Trondheim and Narvik areas at the same time as the Germans I see little the Norwegians or the allies could have done about it.
The rail Distance from Swedish border to Narvik town is 42 kilometers winding downhill, a day’s march on ski without using the railway.
And then basing Luftwaffe Stukas at Östersund and Gällivare would make it hard for the Allies to create any form of local superiority on the ground.
Cheers
/John
Re: But HOW?!?
I presume with a much more supple Nazi German foreign policy, one could see something like this, maybe something like Sweden joining the Anti-Comintern Pact after the Soviet attack on Finland.
The possible details would be: after the diplomatic debacle (for Germany) of March 31st 1939, the diplomacy of Germany undergoes a dramatic makeover, where the bellicose tone is toned down considerably, and instead a tone of "how can we make this to work for both of us" is struck with the Scandinavian countries.
the major two departures would be - some form of support of Finland after Adolf's exhortations for peace are ignored by Djugashvilli, and intervention in Norway only if and only after Franco-Brit invasion.
The possible details would be: after the diplomatic debacle (for Germany) of March 31st 1939, the diplomacy of Germany undergoes a dramatic makeover, where the bellicose tone is toned down considerably, and instead a tone of "how can we make this to work for both of us" is struck with the Scandinavian countries.
the major two departures would be - some form of support of Finland after Adolf's exhortations for peace are ignored by Djugashvilli, and intervention in Norway only if and only after Franco-Brit invasion.
Nobody expects the Fallschirm! Our chief weapon is surprise; surprise and fear; fear and surprise. Our 2 weapons are fear and surprise; and ruthless efficiency. Our *3* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency; and almost fanatical devotion
Re: Sweden joins axis
would sweden joining the anti-commintern pact have done anything to the SU, and if so then what?
- Andrew