Bypassing Leningrad

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AJFFM
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Re: Bypassing Leningrad

#16

Post by AJFFM » 05 Jul 2014, 19:12

In my opinion the best strategy against Leningrad was direct storming period. Yes its out there and it is hard but AGS successfully stormed the more difficult Kiev around the same time successfully.

Bypassing Leningrad and moving east is exactly what was the Tikhvin offensive was about. and guess what? It stretched and already weak and overstretched AGN even more and lead to the disaster later when the Volkhov Front drove a massive bulge between AGN and AGC during the Winter offensive.

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Baltasar
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Re: Bypassing Leningrad

#17

Post by Baltasar » 05 Jul 2014, 19:49

AJFFM wrote:In my opinion the best strategy against Leningrad was direct storming period. Yes its out there and it is hard but AGS successfully stormed the more difficult Kiev around the same time successfully.

Bypassing Leningrad and moving east is exactly what was the Tikhvin offensive was about. and guess what? It stretched and already weak and overstretched AGN even more and lead to the disaster later when the Volkhov Front drove a massive bulge between AGN and AGC during the Winter offensive.
Point being that storming Leningrad would have further weakened AGN, potentially to a point where it would be in an equally or worse shape to withstand the winter offensives.


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Re: Bypassing Leningrad

#18

Post by AJFFM » 20 Jul 2014, 17:45

Point taken.

However from a strategic point of view the real danger that the stavka saw was against Moscow which was basically the only operating manufacturing base it had in the dark days between Nov. 41 and March 42.

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Re: Bypassing Leningrad

#19

Post by Baltasar » 20 Jul 2014, 18:38

Which means that STAVKA would have done what exactly once they realized that AGN would besiege Leningrad and dig in for the winter around the city?

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Re: Bypassing Leningrad

#20

Post by AJFFM » 20 Jul 2014, 18:47

I am not sure what you mean here but I did not say AGC should dig in and let the stavka (read somewhere that upper-casing stavka is grammatically incorrect) move troops to where the real fighting was, Hitler would have never allowed that idea. My point was that in the 3 months between the attack on Moscow and the beginning of the siege the Germans would have been able with available forces to storm Leningrad albeit with massive casualties. During those three months the stavka was desperately short of troops and my guess they would have abandoned Leningrad.

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Baltasar
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Re: Bypassing Leningrad

#21

Post by Baltasar » 20 Jul 2014, 22:07

As you say, the assault would incur massive losses on the Germans so AGN is unlikely to be of any use for several months. Worse still, once the attack on Moskov is repelled, now with a much diminished threat from AGN, the Russians could be able to break AGN, collapsing that front.
If stavka had wanted to abandon Leningrad, they'd have to do so prior to the arrival of the besieging forces. They didn't do so historically, why would they do it here? Historically, they clung to the city despite massive losses in men, material and civilians.

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Re: Bypassing Leningrad

#22

Post by AJFFM » 21 Jul 2014, 19:10

But AGN did have a large number of troops at its disposal, 26 divisions plus 4 police and security divisions. It also could draw support from neighbouring formations (especially AGS) and strategic reserves since it faced the least opposition comparatively. Doubt an operation this big would draw more than 7 or 8 divisions directly especially with Naval support being quite viable.

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Re: Bypassing Leningrad

#23

Post by Baltasar » 21 Jul 2014, 19:28

The police and security divisions were not trained or equipped for frontline combat, even less for urban warfare on the scale a storming of Leningrad would suggest.

As for the 26 divisions you mention, could you please tell me which units you are referring to? As far as I know, wikipedia offers a relatively good account on the OoB of AGN:

OoB Heeresgruppe Nord
- 16. Armee
--- X. Armeekorps
----- 30. Infanterie-Division
----- 126. Infanterie-Division
--- XXVIII. Armeekorps
----- 122. Infanterie-Division
----- 123. Infanterie-Division
--- II. Armeekorps
----- 121. Infanterie-Division
----- 12. Infanterie-Division
----- 32. Infanterie-Division
--- Reserve
----- 253. Infanterie-Division

- 18. Armee
--- directly attached to 18. Armee HQ
----- 291. Infanterie-Division
--- XXVI. Armeekorps
----- 61. Infanterie-Division
----- 217. Infanterie-Division
--- XXXVIII. Armeekorps
----- 58. Infanterie-Division
I. Armeekorps
----- 11. Infanterie-Division
----- 1. Infanterie-Division
----- 21. Infanterie-Division

That's 15 infantry divisions, where am I missing the other 11?

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Re: Bypassing Leningrad

#24

Post by AJFFM » 21 Jul 2014, 19:35

I am including the reserves and PG4 which was detached from AGN after it reached Leningrad. That is an addition 11 infantry, SS and Pz divisions.

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Baltasar
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Re: Bypassing Leningrad

#25

Post by Baltasar » 21 Jul 2014, 21:10

Panzergruppe 4 contained:
--- XXXXI. Armeekorps (motorisiert)
----- 1. Panzer-Division
----- 269. Infanterie-Division
----- 6. Panzer-Division
----- 36. Infanterie-Division (motorisiert)
--- LVI. Armeekorps (motorisiert)
----- 290. Infanterie-Division
----- 8. Panzer-Division
----- 3. Infanterie-Division (motorisiert)
--- Reserve
----- SS-Division Totenkopf


PG4 with it's 8 divisions was detached from AGN and added to the assault on Moskov. If you use that formation in the assault on Leningrad, it'll not be available against Moskov, greatly limiting the available forces there. Most likely, the offensive against Moskov would not have taken place, or with greatly limited goals.

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Re: Bypassing Leningrad

#26

Post by AJFFM » 22 Jul 2014, 20:32

AGN lost PG4 to AGC after reaching Leningrad for a while. At the same time XXXIX (Mot.) Corps was moved to 18th army order of battle around the same time plus the Spanish division which meant that AGC can afford losing some of its armour without affecting it offensive capabilities.

In urban warfare Pz. divisions would not be useful but they can play a decisive role in blocking any relief effort by the Soviets in open country. You didn't need the entire Pz. Group, you only need some of its infantry components.

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Baltasar
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Re: Bypassing Leningrad

#27

Post by Baltasar » 22 Jul 2014, 22:35

You realize that these forces arrived there after 3 months of campaigning?

39th corps contained 3 infantry and 2 tank divisions, which is still less than PG4.

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