Operation Barbarossa Launched In May 1942

[JAG13]

Couldnt find it, oh well, quickie:

Jan 17 - Molotov declared to the german ambassador that that Bulgaria was in Russia’s security zone and that it would be a violation of this zone if it were occupied by German troops.

February - The Iraqis request military assistance from Germany.

Mar 1 - The Germans inform Molotov that the Bulgarians have joined the axis and that German troops would enter the country the next day. The Russian limit themselves to declare that they could not support the Bulgarian government in the application of its present policy.

Mar 12 - On hearing about L&L and pushed by the KM and LW Hitler decides to KO Britain out of the war by whatever means before dealing with Russia, displacement of a sizable part of the Wehrmacht would still take place in order to disuade the soviets from any hostile move.

Hitler orders plans prepared to assist Iraq with and without Turkish cooperation.

Mar 19 - In conversations with the Italians the Germans condition further assistance on Albania and NA to their control of the NA theather, the command would be joint but the Germans would have the last word. The Italians would provide naval support, the Germans all air and 4 armoured units. The Italians accept reluctantly.

Mar 24 - LW units start to replace RA units in NA, they are "needed" in Albania, only the Italian stukas and a couple Gruppi of C.200 stay. The NA ports are to receive radar stations and nightfighters, 12 KM S-Boote are sent as well.

Mar 25 - Yugoeslavia signs its entry into the axis. The Russians declare that if Turkey was attacked she could count on the complete understanding and neutrality of the USSR.

Mar 26 - HMS York damaged by Italian torpedo craft and beached in Crete.

Mar 27 - Coup d'etat in Belgrade. Hitler orders the invasion of Yugoeslavia.

Mar 31 - First units of 15th Panzer land in Tripoli.

Apr 1 - Coup d'etat in Iraq, their troops secure the oilfields.

Apr 5 - The USSR signs a treaty of friendship with Yugoeslavia.

Apr 6 - Marita begins.

Apr 9 - 3 Greek divisions on the Metaxas line surrender.

Apr 10 - Hitler orders 2 panzer and 2 motorized divisions from the unused Marita reserv to be sent to Bulgaria and readied for crossing into Asia. The Germans request the Iraqis to secure their transportation and oil infrstructure.

Von Papen meets with the Turkish President and offers them East Thrace, a number of Greek islands, their good offices to obtain the Dodecanese islands and assistance to recover Cyprus.

The Germans start talks with the French regarding cooperation against the British, specifically in Syria.

Apr 11 - After routing the British in NA, Rommel surrounds Tobruk.

Apr 13 - Inonu requests Iraq and Syria be recognized as within Turkey's sphere.

Apr 16 - The first units of the Asia Armee arrive to the Turkish-Bulgarian frontier, von Manstein is appointed as its commander.

Apr 17 - Yugoeslavia surrenders. The Iraqis again request military assistance from Germany.

Apr 18 - After several meetings von Papen adds Crete to the original offers plus French weapons and a deal on Iraqi oil, he also tells Inonu that is their final offer and if its not enough the Germans would have to acept Russia's alliance request that involves them getting east Turkey and the straits.

The first elements of the Indian 10th Infantry division start to arrive to Basra.

Apr 19 - The Turks accept and grant the Germans passage, bases in Turkey and the garrisoning of the railroad. The already mobilized Turkish army patrols the Kurdish areas in anticipation of British instigated unrest, a precutionary move triggered by the interception of a British launch carrying explosives earlier in the month.

Apr 20 - The first German units enter Turkey to secure their railroad infrastructure, 4 divisions to follow. The Germans request Italian assistance to build terminals and provide the train ferrys to expedite cargo transhipment over the bosphorus.

Apr 21 - The Greeks surrender. LW units arrive to Konya, Diyarbakir and other Turkish air bases. The French agree to allow the passage of weapons and aircraft to Iraq and to cede some weapons to them.

Italian and German torpedo boats patrol off Tobruk and mine the harbour.

Apr 24 - The British evacuate Greece for Crete abandoning most of their heavy equipment. An infantry and a flak batallion are flown to Mosul and on 30 SM.81s to secure the oilfields and Mosul AFB.

The RAF attempts to bomb railroad bridges in Syria and Turkey.

Apr 25 - 24 Bf-109s, 12 Bf-110s and 36 Ju-88s arrive to Mosul AFB.

In response to Rommel reinforcement requests, 24 Char B modified as flamethrower tanks are sent to NA, along with eight 17cm guns and a StuG batallion.

The Russians suddenly accepted Germany’s plan for the delimitation of the frontier between the Igorka river and the Baltic, they also increase the flow of goods to Germany.

Apr 26 - The RAF bombs Mosul AFB.

Apr 27 - The first German units start to arrive in Mosul. The LW bombs RAF Habbaniya. The RAF sends 2 Hurricane squadrons to RAF Shaibah.

Apr 28 - A German recce battallion detrains in Samarra and heads for Baghdad before moving to attack RAF Habbadiyah with Iraqi and LW support.

Apr 29 - RAF Habbaniyah is taken by the axis. The 20th Brigade of the 10th Indian Div. lands in Basra and joins the fighting against the Iraqis in the city.

May 1 - German troops move to secure the oilpipe to Tripoli and act as a blocking force against British troops from Palestine. LW units move into Habbaniyah AFB.

May 3 - A German armoured division starts to arrive near Basra in support of Iraqi troops. LW attacks RAF Shaibah and Basra.

May 5 - The Shah of Iran occupies the Iranian oilfields and the Abbadan refinery at night, thus nationalizing the Iranian oil industry. British workers sabotage the facilities with varying degrees of success.

May 7 - Tiger convoy sighted, first attacks by SM.79s.

May 8 - The Tiger convoy is attacked by 48 Ju-87s scorted by 12 Bf-109s and 12 Bf-110s, HMS Ark Royal is crippled by 4x500kg bombs and then sunk by SM.79s.

Of the 5 Tiger cargo ships 1 is sunk by mines and 2 more by Italian and German torpedo craft.

May 12 - The remaining 2 cargo ships from Tiger arrive in Alexandria.

May 14 - The remnants of the 10th Indian InfDiv surrenders in Basra and Iraq is free of British troops.

May 20 - Merkur begins. The Iranians sign a cooperation agreement with Germany.

May 22 - The destroyers Greyhound, Kashmir and Kelly, and the cruisers Fiji and Gloucester are sunk by the LW. BB Valiant and Warspite are damaged.

May 24 - Bismark sinks HMS Hood. Bismark is hit by a torpedo launched from a HMS Victorious' Swordfish.

May 27 - Bismark arrives in Brest for repairs. The British start to evacuate Crete. Istanbul's new ferry terminals are completed and start to operate with 3 ferrys of 25 wagon capacity each.

May 28 - The RAF bombs Brest. The 15th Pz and the special units requested by Rommel arrive to the Tobruk perimeter.

May 31 - The evacuation of Crete ends, the RN losses in total 4 cruisers and 6 destroyers sunk, 2 BBs, 1 CV, 2 CLs and 2 DDs damaged.

Still incomplete...

[BDV]

methinks zombie ulianov and zombie Kemal a slightly more likely occurrence than the chain of events you outlined above.

[JAG13]

methinks zombie ulianov and zombie Kemal a slightly more likely occurrence than the chain of events you outlined above.

Well, who would dare argue against such an eloquent structured and solidly argument...

[BDV]

"BDV":methinks zombie ulianov and zombie Kemal a slightly more likely occurrence than the chain of events you outlined above.

Well, who would dare argue against such an eloquent structured and solidly argument...

well, you do have Petain et Co, Mussolini et Co, Djugashvili et Co, and Inonu et Co replaced by thoroughly svengalied nazi-stooge versions of their historical selves. Also, you have British-Commonwealth actions completely unchanged in the context of no Barbarossa. Not to mention, the Yamamoto dice roll for Bismark.

[JAG13]

"BDV":methinks zombie ulianov and zombie Kemal a slightly more likely occurrence than the chain of events you outlined above.

Well, who would dare argue against such an eloquent structured and solidly argument...

well, you do have Petain et Co, Mussolini et Co, Djugashvili et Co, and Inonu et Co replaced by thoroughly svengalied nazi-stooge versions of their historical selves. Also, you have British-Commonwealth actions completely unchanged in the context of no Barbarossa. Not to mention, the Yamamoto dice roll for Bismark.

Lol, thats what you wish to believe because it contradicts your prejudices. Lets see:

France was by then signing the Paris Protocols but Hitler had little interest on those since B1941 was ad portas, if focused on the Med then ratification of the agreement would be very likely, and that would almost guarantee a de facto French entry into the war since it is unlikely the Brits would have liked German bases in French colonies.

Musso had no choice, he was begging the Germans to intevene, send arms, DO SOMETHING!!!! He actually expected very harsh conditions from the Germans when he went to them hat in hand, specially after his earlier refuffs, ITTL, he got it and swallowed it just as he had expected would have to.

Russia was delighted by the Belgrade coup, they even signed a friendship treaty to support them and entice them into opposing the Germans, they were then terrified when noticed the Germans were moving east and the Serbians collapsed in a week instead of entangling the Germans for a long time as they had expected. So Josif threw his arms around the German military attache in Moscow, in public, saying "we are going to be BFFs forever, right?", he also quickly yielded on frontier demarcation issues after stonewalling for months and sped up raw material shipments while offering even more, damn the treaties, we will just give you what you want...

The Turks didnt say no, they haggled about price, they wanted Iraq or at least its oil, the Germans about to gain it from Russia quickly lost interest and intended to reopen negotiations later, pistol on the table if need be. ITTL, the pistol would eventually be there and the Turks were not stupid, they would not oppose the Germans if it came to that.

The Brits were hardly in a position to doing something different, they were in the middle of a major screwup and had no further troops available in theather, at least not armed ones. As it was, Churchill even had to overule his commander to even send a few ragtag troops from Palestine.

Would they be sending more? You bet! But that is for later on, convoys from Britain took a month with the exception of suicidal ones like Tiger, with the LW in the Med, they would just fulfill the Admiralty's expectations.

Ark Royal was the target of a stuka strike during Tiger, but the Fulmars dispersed it. In the context of a full commitment to the Med you can expect both a heavier raid and a proper escort with similar results to the other occasions Stukas visited RN flight decks, and sicne AR has no armoured deck then it would be more susceptible to damage...

Let me know if you have further doubts...

[rvjohnson1]

I have enjoyed reading everyone posts on this thread there are a lot of well thought out ideas on an alternate timeline. One of the things that I was thinking of for alternate is if Barbarossa didn't happen until May 1942 and Germany was free too try to knock Great Britain out of the war, I belive a major factor in that would be getting control of her ally Japan. In the timeline of actual events the Japanese hit the Germans with two pretty major blows, the first one being getting thier guts stomped out in the Mongolian plains by the Russians allowing Russians to free up their Far East Divisions for the defense of Moscow, the other is obviously attacking the United States and dragging Germany with them albeit it was Hitlers very bad decision to declare war on the USA. I think in an alternate timeline if Germany could have convinced Japan into helping them with Great Britain primarily with naval support it would have gone a long way. If invading Great Britain Germany would have to deal with the powerful fleet of the royal navy, however if they could bring the Japanese combined fleet and the Italian surface fleet along with their own naval and LW forces I believe they could have decimated the Royal navy allowing for an amphibious invasion of Great Britain and rapid capitulation by the British. If Great Britain was knocked out it would have severely damaged the whole lend-lease situation for the Russians there by making invasion in 42 or later much more likely to succeed. Whether or not Hitler wanted to actually invade the British is up or question, I can't remember where I saw it but I remember reading something to the effect that he believed that the Germans and the British had much in common and that they were generally decent people unlike the Bolsheviks who he had a total hatred for. I'm sure he was all for the surrender of the British however and them being knocked out of the war.

[LWD]

Japan needs oil, how can Germany supply it? Indeed could the IJN even make it to the Atlantic with the oil they had on hand? Then there's the question of what happens to Japan if the IJN goes to the Atlantic? US support for China and the Embargo are going to cripple Japan and there's nothing they can do about it except withdraw from China but they can't really do that either.

By the way the Soviet Japanese pre war battles had little to do with freeing up Soviet forces in the East. It was Japan's clear understanding that they needed an adequate source of oil and the only one available was in the South West Pacfic. There was simply no point as far as Japan was concerned to going to war with the Soviets.

[JAG13]

I have enjoyed reading everyone posts on this thread there are a lot of well thought out ideas on an alternate timeline. One of the things that I was thinking of for alternate is if Barbarossa didn't happen until May 1942 and Germany was free too try to knock Great Britain out of the war, I belive a major factor in that would be getting control of her ally Japan. In the timeline of actual events the Japanese hit the Germans with two pretty major blows, the first one being getting thier guts stomped out in the Mongolian plains by the Russians allowing Russians to free up their Far East Divisions for the defense of Moscow,

That happened in 1939.

the other is obviously attacking the United States and dragging Germany with them albeit it was Hitlers very bad decision to declare war on the USA.

Roosevelt was trying hard to get into the war, he wanted in and one of his triggers worked.

I think in an alternate timeline if Germany could have convinced Japan into helping them with Great Britain primarily with naval support it would have gone a long way.

Thats what Hitler was telling the Japanese to do, but they understood the Usians would then enter the war so, they had to go to.

If invading Great Britain Germany would have to deal with the powerful fleet of the royal navy, however if they could bring the Japanese combined fleet and the Italian surface fleet along with their own naval and LW forces I believe they could have decimated the Royal navy allowing for an amphibious invasion of Great Britain and rapid capitulation by the British.

Invading Britain is a hard proposal, but knocking then out could be feasible udner certain circumstances. The Japanese knew they couldnt touch the Brits without the Usians jumping in,or they at least were so convinced.

If Great Britain was knocked out it would have severely damaged the whole lend-lease situation for the Russians there by making invasion in 42 or later much more likely to succeed.

L&L would be there for anyone fighting the Germans, a consequence of crazy Hitler singling out the US as jew heaven.

Whether or not Hitler wanted to actually invade the British is up or question, I can't remember where I saw it but I remember reading something to the effect that he believed that the Germans and the British had much in common and that they were generally decent people unlike the Bolsheviks who he had a total hatred for. I'm sure he was all for the surrender of the British however and them being knocked out of the war.

Yep, he was crazy that way, he tried several times to woo the Brits, didnt work.

[rvjohnson1]

Japan needs oil, how can Germany supply it? Indeed could the IJN even make it to the Atlantic with the oil they had on hand?

By the way the Soviet Japanese pre war battles had little to do with freeing up Soviet forces in the East. It was Japan's clear understanding that they needed an adequate source of oil and the only one available was in the South West Pacfic. There was simply no point as far as Japan was concerned to going to war with the Soviets.

Very good points and I agree they were desperate for oil and im not sure how much oil they had on hand at the time but they did manage to steam across the pacific vast to shanghai us (im American) at Pearl Harbor so I would think they could make it to the channel, and yes at that time I believe Germany could be of help with supplies.

I agree that the battles in themselves did not play a factor but they did sour the Japanese on the idea of continuing conflict with Russia, Soviet Intel later assured Stalin that the Japanese had every intention of attacking the USA thereby allowing for the transfer of troops. Im sure you can argue the merrits of that considering I believe I read it it Zhukov's book.

Thanks for the good debate, im usually just a lurker but this was such a good topic I wanted to jump in.

[rvjohnson1]

the other is obviously attacking the United States and dragging Germany with them albeit it was Hitlers very bad decision to declare war on the USA

Roosevelt was trying hard to get into the war, he wanted in and one of his triggers worked.

I knew he was trying but short of what happened he really lacked the public and political support I think, although the US was already as close to being at war as one can be without actually shooting at the other guy ie material support ect.

Whether or not Hitler wanted to actually invade the British is up or question, I can't remember where I saw it but I remember reading something to the effect that he believed that the Germans and the British had much in common and that they were generally decent people unlike the Bolsheviks who he had a total hatred for. I'm sure he was all for the surrender of the British however and them being knocked out of the war.

Yep, he was crazy that way, he tried several times to woo the Brits, didnt work.

Good deal thanks for the info, due you by chance know a source for that. I would like to read a bit more on it and thanks for your reply.

PS it took me about 40 min to figure out how to do multiple quotes....smh

[JAG13]

I knew he was trying but short of what happened he really lacked the public and political support I think, although the US was already as close to being at war as one can be without actually shooting at the other guy ie material support ect.

Well, the US had blatantly broken pretty much all neutrality laws and USN ships were already shooting at the KM subs, they eventually started to retaliate as well, the war only needed formalization.

Good deal thanks for the info, due you by chance know a source for that. I would like to read a bit more on it and thanks for your reply.

PS it took me about 40 min to figure out how to do multiple quotes....smh

No problem, you can pretty much take your pick on the issue, any book dealing on Hitler will tell you about how the nut considered the Brits "racial cousins" who were mistaken in opposing him in his quest for Lebensraum... hell, its even on Mein Kampf. And not only him, Goering, Hess, etc.

Happened to me as well at the beggining!

[rvjohnson1]

No problem, you can pretty much take your pick on the issue, any book dealing on Hitler will tell you about how the nut considered the Brits "racial cousins" :

Ah yes thank you I couldnt remember the term that was used to describe them.

[LWD]

...im not sure how much oil they had on hand at the time but they did manage to steam across the pacific vast to shanghai us (im American) at Pearl Harbor so I would think they could make it to the channel,

??? Consider looking at a map. The IJN started the war with about a years supply of oil. The Midway operation alone used almost that much (a lot of the oil for it apparently coming from the already siezed Dutch East Indies). Midway is only about half way across the Pacific (thus the name) if you are talking moving to the North Atlantic especially doing so without using the Suez or Panama Canal you are talking about an operation several times that of the Midway campaign. See http://www.combinedfleet.com/guadoil1.htm for instance for a related discussion.

and yes at that time I believe Germany could be of help with supplies.

Indeed they had so much oil that the Italian fleet was almost restricted to port. Perhaps they could have upped synthetic fuel production at that time but that would have cut into steel and energy production in the Reich.

.. Soviet Intel later assured Stalin that the Japanese had every intention of attacking the USA thereby allowing for the transfer of troops. ...

That's fairly well documented (at least the intel part) but as I stated Japan needed oil and the oil was to the South. The IJA was also pretty well tied up in China while the IJN was relativly free at that point. Not much they could do in Siberia but in the Pacfic ...
There's also a question of just how much strength was transfered from the Far East by the Soviets. Certainly formations were moved that way but some of the troop strength reports indicate that there wasn't a huge drop in troop strength in the Soviet Far East. Raising new formations being the usual explanation. It would be nice to have some good trustworthy primary sources on it.

[ljadw]

The forces released from the Far East were marginal and absolutely non decisive for the battle of Moscow .Besides,most were released before Japan decided to attack PH .

This has been discussed countless time on this forum .

[LWD]

The forces released from the Far East were marginal and absolutely non decisive for the battle of Moscow .Besides,most were released before Japan decided to attack PH .

This has been discussed countless time on this forum .

That there were relativly few involved in the battle of Moscow has been fairly well substantiated. That they were marginal and non decisive is not. Indeed the effect of those Eastern units released earlier may have been substantial.

As stated it has been dicussed many times.