What if France and England were connected?

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TomV
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What if France and England were connected?

#1

Post by TomV » 15 Mar 2014, 14:30

Hi everyone,

Just a question that popped into my mind earlier. How would the war have turned out if France and England were still connected by a landbridge spanning from Calais to Dover? Would the Germans have invaded England, or would the English be able to drive the Germans back?

Cheers, Thomas

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Re: What if France and England were connected?

#2

Post by ChrisDR68 » 15 Mar 2014, 15:04

That alters the whole history of Europe! lol

England used to occupy much of France in the middle ages. If there was a land bridge that occupation would likely be permanent (at least for a good portion of northern France). That means England (and later the United Kingdom) is much more a land power with a large army mainly based on the continent compared to the OTL where the UK is primarily a sea power.

I would imagine that would mean the British Empire would not have become as large as it did in the 19th Century and Britain would see itself as much more a "European" country rather than the semi-detached one it still sees itself as.

That changes the timeline of the Napoleonic wars (if they happen at all) and alters whether the Holy Roman Empire ever ends up eventually becoming Germany and Austria-Hungary.

With Britain a permanent presence of the continent it might have made Europe a more stable continent as a large British army could enforce the famous balance of power but that's impossible to know for sure.

Interesting question though :)


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redcoat
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Re: What if France and England were connected?

#3

Post by redcoat » 16 Mar 2014, 19:57

ChrisDR68 wrote:That alters the whole history of Europe! lol

England used to occupy much of France in the middle ages.
It was actually the other way around. :oops:
The Norman nobles who considered themselves French occuppied England, but they also ruled a large portion of France.
The Hundred Years War actually started as a civil war between two French noble familes, it only became France v England in its later stages .

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Re: What if France and England were connected?

#4

Post by ChrisDR68 » 16 Mar 2014, 20:20

From the Encylopedia Britainnica:

The Normans (from Nortmanni: “Northmen”) were originally pagan barbarian pirates from Denmark, Norway, and Iceland who began to make destructive plundering raids on European coastal settlements in the 8th century. During the later 9th century their raids on the northern and western coastlands of France grew in scale and frequency, and the Vikings had secured a permanent foothold on Frankish soil in the valley of the lower Seine River by about 900.

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/418283/Norman

So you could argue that it was actually the Vikings that ruled both France and England during this period :)

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redcoat
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Re: What if France and England were connected?

#5

Post by redcoat » 16 Mar 2014, 23:11

ChrisDR68 wrote:So you could argue that it was actually the Vikings that ruled both France and England during this period :)
True, though the Vikings who settled in France seem to have gone native very quickly, speaking french and considering themselves amongst the ranks of French nobilty by the middle of the 11th century

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Re: What if France and England were connected?

#6

Post by MLW » 16 Mar 2014, 23:47

The Vikings never ruled France. They only ruled part of Normandy and a few surrounding areas. After 1066, for a period of time, they also ruled what was to become England.

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Re: What if France and England were connected?

#7

Post by phylo_roadking » 17 Mar 2014, 00:12

The Vikings never ruled France. They only ruled part of Normandy and a few surrounding areas.
To be fair - geogrpahical area wasn't much of an indicator of power in feudal times; the Duke of Normandy was close to being as powerful as the King of France at one point. However...
After 1066, for a period of time, they also ruled what was to become England.
..we shouldn't think in terms of nations as much as family holdings in the feudal period; the conquered England was a possession of the Duke of Normandy...and thus at the same time it was wholly separate from the Duke of Normandy's position vis a vis the King of France :wink: In feudal terms it was like having the U.S. in your pocket for Lend Lease :P A power and support base for the Duke of Normandy that wasn't part of the French feudal hierarchy...

...which was why the Normans subsequently spent so much time fighting each other over it :lol:
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Re: What if France and England were connected?

#8

Post by Graeme Sydney » 17 Mar 2014, 12:38

There was a recent DNA survey of modern day British and it was concluded that more British share DNA with people from Brittany than any other group - and Brittany is France. So go figure :milsmile: .

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Re: What if France and England were connected?

#9

Post by TomV » 17 Mar 2014, 17:09

Well it was English for a very long time, so I guess that makes sense.

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redcoat
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Re: What if France and England were connected?

#10

Post by redcoat » 18 Mar 2014, 00:36

Graeme Sydney wrote:There was a recent DNA survey of modern day British and it was concluded that more British share DNA with people from Brittany than any other group - and Brittany is France. So go figure :milsmile: .
Celts rule :thumbsup:

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Re: What if France and England were connected?

#11

Post by pugsville » 18 Mar 2014, 05:16

The problem with the OP what if is that it would fundamentally change the development of Britain. It would be much more connected and the historical development would be so different that by the time we get to 20th century the changes are impossible to predict. Britain could be part of France, leading to a much stronger France or ? or? too many possibilities,

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Re: What if France and England were connected?

#12

Post by phylo_roadking » 18 Mar 2014, 16:16

The problem with the OP what if is that it would fundamentally change the development of Britain. It would be much more connected and the historical development would be so different that by the time we get to 20th century the changes are impossible to predict. Britain could be part of France, leading to a much stronger France or ? or? too many possibilities,
Well, interestingly there are some legends buried in the mythology of the British Isles that "date" back to that era following the end of the last Ice Age and before the seas rose enough to cut the UK off from the European mainland....the tales of Lyonesse for example, and other Welsh and Irish legends that point to human habitation in pre-flood lowlands in the Irish Sea...and in the realms of "real" science there's "Doggerland".... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doggerland ...certainly within the period of Mesolithic human habitation.

But - how would the recorded history of the british isles have changed? Well, the timeline of apparent successive popukation movements westward - LONG before the Roman era ;) - would have been far easier; the Gauls would almost certainly have made it into "Britain"...

So in turn it's entirely possible that an earlier....and FAR more brutal...total Roman conquest of Britain would have formed part of Caesar's all-over Gallic conquests - complete with genocide-level population enslavement/extinction! And many centuries later it would have ALSO changed Rome's opinion of "Britannia" as somewhere that could eventually be abandoned without any greater risk to the Western Empire than the perils it was already facing - it would be an integral part of Roman Gaul!
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Re: What if France and England were connected?

#13

Post by BDV » 18 Mar 2014, 22:03

I think that the influence on the climate basically ensures that the patterns of human settelment seen in Europe are completely different, and as a result, a completely different Europe arises.

Actually,a western version of the Pripyat Marshes arises at the mouth of Rhine and Maas, whose silt deposits are no longer washed out into the North Sea, further connecting Europe and Britain
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Re: What if France and England were connected?

#14

Post by maltesefalcon » 22 Mar 2014, 17:01

If the two land masses were joined why would you assume that France and Britain would have evolved into 2 separate nations in the first place?

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Re: What if France and England were connected?

#15

Post by Cynical » 23 Mar 2014, 11:38

It's a very crazy question to think about, because it brings up so much new elements and impacts history so far beyond just WW2 and the schematics of the war. If the two were connected, the west would have been very powerful already, and I don't know that Hitler would have taken France. It would have required alot more manpower on the front and Hitler would probably have been so occupied with the French/British invasion, that as a result, operation Barbarossa was never commenced, so this brings up a whole new debate. I do believe that eventually Hitler would defeat France and the UK, with alot more cost. I think this would have taken him years longer.

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