What if Ural Bomber designs as good as B-17?

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phylo_roadking
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Re: What if Ural Bomber designs as good as B-17?

#46

Post by phylo_roadking » 22 Apr 2014, 20:41

Well, if we're considering Barbarossa, the moment to make the agreements with the French is surely the time Directive 21 was issued, i.e. December 1940, not as an afterthought at the time it was starting to sputter.
Yes, but it might have taken that long to negotiate ;)
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Re: What if Ural Bomber designs as good as B-17?

#47

Post by BDV » 02 May 2014, 16:17

Well, e.g., the Panhard 178 A production ENDED in October 1940 ...

Looks to me that Nazis wanted French weapons production to cease completely EVEN for weapons germans were using.

That may make perfect sense after a ceasefire (at a minimum) is reached with the world's largest Empire, but makes no sense when in addition to continuing the war with the said Empire simultaneously and at the same time one is also going to invade the largest country in the world.
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Re: What if Ural Bomber designs as good as B-17?

#48

Post by phylo_roadking » 03 May 2014, 01:44

Looks to me that Nazis wanted French weapons production to cease completely EVEN for weapons germans were using.

That may make perfect sense after a ceasefire (at a minimum) is reached with the world's largest Empire, but makes no sense when in addition to continuing the war with the said Empire simultaneously and at the same time one is also going to invade the largest country in the world.
But think what the Armistice was about ;) It was about taking France out of the war, and preventing it ever entering the war again. ( Ideally! :P ) It was about taking weapons out of the hands of Frenchmen as far as possible, and preventing them ever acquiring any again - except in the colonies where what they had could ony be moved about by German permission ;)
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Re: What if Ural Bomber designs as good as B-17?

#49

Post by Lieutenant S. Chuikov » 25 May 2014, 03:46

Unless it had the range to reach the US and could be built fast enough to survive the attrition, it's effect would have been limited. A heavy bomber would have been able to cause more damage to Britain and the USSR, but they were being supplied by the US.
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Re: What if Ural Bomber designs as good as B-17?

#50

Post by LWD » 27 May 2014, 15:01

If you can't make it in numbers the effect may actually be negative. I'm not sure that Germany could afford to give up 4 fighters, dive bombers, or fighter bombers for each heavy bomber especaily when one looks at the historical loss rates such aircraft sustained especially when they lacked a good escort.

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Re: What if Ural Bomber designs as good as B-17?

#51

Post by Lieutenant S. Chuikov » 27 May 2014, 16:41

LWD wrote:If you can't make it in numbers the effect may actually be negative. I'm not sure that Germany could afford to give up 4 fighters, dive bombers, or fighter bombers for each heavy bomber especaily when one looks at the historical loss rates such aircraft sustained especially when they lacked a good escort.
Exactly. It wouldn't do much else that other bombers could do. Even if it could reach the US, it would need to be mass produceable to replace losses.
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Re: What if Ural Bomber designs as good as B-17?

#52

Post by stg 44 » 27 May 2014, 17:00

LWD wrote:If you can't make it in numbers the effect may actually be negative. I'm not sure that Germany could afford to give up 4 fighters, dive bombers, or fighter bombers for each heavy bomber especaily when one looks at the historical loss rates such aircraft sustained especially when they lacked a good escort.
Again, they made some 1200 He177s historically.

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Re: What if Ural Bomber designs as good as B-17?

#53

Post by Lieutenant S. Chuikov » 28 May 2014, 06:28

That's out of close to 120,000 compared nearly 300,000 by the US.
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Re: What if Ural Bomber designs as good as B-17?

#54

Post by Cantankerous » 24 Jan 2024, 04:45

Lieutenant S. Chuikov wrote:
25 May 2014, 03:46
Unless it had the range to reach the US and could be built fast enough to survive the attrition, it's effect would have been limited. A heavy bomber would have been able to cause more damage to Britain and the USSR, but they were being supplied by the US.
Just like the B-17 being only capable of reaching Germany from England, the operating range of the Dornier Do 19 and Junkers Ju 89, had either of them entered production, were definitely not designed for intercontinental strikes on the US.

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Re: What if Ural Bomber designs as good as B-17?

#55

Post by T. A. Gardner » 24 Jan 2024, 18:32

The Do 19 and Ju 89 suffered the same, and even worse, problems when they were developed than did Boeing's XB-15 that was a contemporary and better aircraft. All three suffered from being underpowered, as did any very large long-range bomber being developed in the mid-30's.

That's not to mention that Germany's aircraft industry would never be able to produce more than maybe a couple thousand over the next roughly 10 years if they were brought into service.

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