DB603 not cancelled in 1937

[stg 44]

I couldn't find this same thread so I figure I'd start one; if its already here my apologies.

http://translate.google.com/translate?h ... CEMQ7gEwBA


I've seen this confirmed in the following book:
http://books.google.com/books?id=DvsImP ... 37&f=false
Though sadly there is no preview I can link to with the information.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daimler-Benz_DB_603


For comparison:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_801#Sp ... W_801_C.29


So what if Udet didn't cancel development of the DB603 in March 1937 only to restart it in 1940?
http://books.google.com/books?id=Elfmh6 ... 37&f=false
Historically Daimler-Benz did not continue development for this engine. Lacking military funds, they didn't pursue it and were shy about producing the model once the war was on, as they were afraid to lose money on tooling up for a model that the RLM would cancel again. Ultimately they didn't order prototypes until 1940 which were due for delivery in 1941. By late 1943 it was finally made reliable historically. Lots of time was lost and it prevented the engine from getting into large scale production and service.

From what I can tell with greater military support and promises of contracts once the model is developed, I think it's feasible that the development of this model is moved up to 1941. So it would be cleared for mass production by mid-1941 and several models could be designed around it. The FW190 for instance was initially supposed to be a liquid-cooled design, but was forced to be designed around the air-cooled radial BMW801 that wasn't functional until 1942. The Do217 also had that issue, as did other aircraft that were supposed to accept the BMW801 because of its horse power.
Instead the more powerful DB603 could have been accepted even earlier than the weaker (at the time) BMW engine AND have better fuel consumption too.

That would mean the FW190 enters combat in mid-1941 instead of 1942 and would be able to fight at higher altitudes because of its liquid cooled engines. If not then at least there would be the option for the FW190C to be ready by late 1942 and in mass service by 1943.
The Do217 with its 4 ton bomb load would be ready to fight in 1941, instead of having to wait for the BMW to work out its cooling problems. In fact with a decent engine (it was hampered by the lack of availability of the BMW 801 engine, which it had to compete with the FW190A for) it more likely that it ends up replacing the HE111 as the primary level bomber (with the Ju88 being technically a dive bomber).
The Ju88 could also be adapted to the much more powerful DB603s, which would dramatically improve performance both for bomber and fighter versions. We could have a Ju88S by 1942-3 or even an early Ju188 due to no having to wait for the Jumo 213 to make the upgrade. Perhaps even the He177 would try for the 4 propellor version earlier, as four DB603s offered power hp than a pair of DB606 welded engines. Supposedly Ernst Heinkel even was arguing for a four propellor version of the He177 in 1938, so with a viable engine alternative to the DB606 we could see the He177B appear by 1942 instead of the A-series. It would have a lot of missions ahead of it too and save Germany from making the twice as heavy Ju290 for maritime recon, plus obvious targets in the East. So instead of having 1200 useless He177As sitting around, it instead can launch strategic missions against the Soviets, just as the He111 did in 1943.

Perhaps there would have been a large production facility built for its like Genshagen was built for Daimler for the 600/601 engine, but larger, or even something like the Ostmark facility would tool from the beginning for the DB603, rather than transition to it in 1942/43.

This opens up all sorts of changes, does anyone have any suggestions?

[thaddeus_c]

a lot to digest!

from the perspective that the biggest possible change would be an effective heavy bomber, any earlier improvement in engines would have huge effect.

would a more minor change, one that happened in fact, be more likely?

thinking of dropping the dive bombing requirement. would that change speed the development of HE-177, get to point in development cycle and start dealing with engine flameouts? or if that problem was occurring simultaneously they would have only THAT issue, not structural problems too?

called the "flying coffin" but the HE-177 did get produced in large numbers as noted, "what if" was flying without TOO many issues 1943? reach the historical production figures of 1,000 by 1943, half that again produced 1944?

[stg 44]

Why just the heavy bomber, not the Do217 replacing the He111 thanks to having enough high powered engines available? Or an improved Ju88? Perhaps the Jumo 222 and Ju288 are dropped/not pursued due to the success of the DB603? Then there is the issue of the FW190C ready for high altitude operations by 1943 and lower fighter-bomb ops in 1942.

I agree that having a heavy bomber based around the DB603 ready in 1942 would open up interesting options, but the problem remains that the historical fuel constraints will only allow for limited heavy bomber deployment, probably in air corps strength, rather than an independent air fleet like the US 8th air force. Then there are issues around having a long range escort fighter, which without the FW187, its really hard to use them over fighter defended areas. Luckily in the East the Soviets lacked an integrated air defense network, so the Germans could penetrate and hit even defended targets with limited chances to be caught by radar and monitored to targets, as the Soviets were more set up for point defense due to lack of radars and a huge area to defend. But there is the issue of how to counter the heavy hitting P39 with its 37mm bomber killing cannon when it arrives.

[thaddeus_c]

Why just the heavy bomber, not the Do217 replacing the He111 thanks to having enough high powered engines available? Or an improved Ju88? Perhaps the Jumo 222 and Ju288 are dropped/not pursued due to the success of the DB603? Then there is the issue of the FW190C ready for high altitude operations by 1943 and lower fighter-bomb ops in 1942.

I agree that having a heavy bomber based around the DB603 ready in 1942 would open up interesting options, but the problem remains that the historical fuel constraints will only allow for limited heavy bomber deployment, probably in air corps strength, rather than an independent air fleet like the US 8th air force. Then there are issues around having a long range escort fighter, which without the FW187, its really hard to use them over fighter defended areas. Luckily in the East the Soviets lacked an integrated air defense network, so the Germans could penetrate and hit even defended targets with limited chances to be caught by radar and monitored to targets, as the Soviets were more set up for point defense due to lack of radars and a huge area to defend. But there is the issue of how to counter the heavy hitting P39 with its 37mm bomber killing cannon when it arrives.

better engine would lead to some of the developments you discussed but my point was a simpler change, one that WAS made eventually, of dropping the dive bombing requirement might lead to fixes being made to the existing "power system" that was so troublesome on the HE-177 earlier, i.e. if they weren't redesigning the airframe they could have been fixing the engine.

big change if they produce the HE-177 earlier, say no more than historical numbers, just earlier, so that (approx.) 1,000 aircraft are operating 1943 (and not bursting into flames!)

used on Soviet forces or industrial targets.

[stg 44]

Historically by 1943 there were only some 143 He177s produced. It was in 1943-44 that about 1000 were built.