What if BMW and Bramo merged in 1936?

[SpicyJuan]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focke-Wul ... al_history
Barely. Hardly enough to really form a picture of its capabilities and irrelevant to the discussion at hand. A 1945 introduction makes not difference to the war whatsoever and a Jumo 222 version is not going to be ready any sooner.

Doesn't matter, it's still an operational history which immediately disqualifies it as a "Luft '46" aircraft, and qualifies it for best fighter of WW2.

Again, its very limited combat record doesn't prove it was the best by any stretch. What makes it the best to you?

It isn't to me, but based on the aircraft's pure performace, as well as entering service makes it a contender (also take into consideration why the Ta 152's record is not too stellar). One can make the same case with the Bearcat, but it not seeing any action makes the argument weaker.

[stg 44]

BTW can you post a bit about the Jumo 222 being ready in 1942 from what Budrass has to say on the subject? I don't have a copy of his book and getting one is impossible.

[SpicyJuan]

BTW can you post a bit about the Jumo 222 being ready in 1942 from what Budrass has to say on the subject? I don't have a copy of his book and getting one is impossible.

I honestly don't have it, I'm going off of what I've heard, but I'm going to Germany very soon, and I'll see if I can find it (I have the book Ju 288/388/488 which mentions the Jumo 222 if you care).

[stg 44]

I have that one too and it provides about half a page of info that doesn't really clarify the situation other than saying the guy that ran the project said that he would have delivered on time if the RLM hadn't kept demanding upgrades. He maybe be right, but I've also seen otherwise:
https://books.google.com/books?id=Tt7g_ ... 22&f=false
https://books.google.com/books?id=eJ7oC ... 22&f=false

[SpicyJuan]

I have that one too and it provides about half a page of info that doesn't really clarify the situation other than saying the guy that ran the project said that he would have delivered on time if the RLM hadn't kept demanding upgrades. He maybe be right, but I've also seen otherwise:
https://books.google.com/books?id=Tt7g_ ... 22&f=false
https://books.google.com/books?id=eJ7oC ... 22&f=false

Thanks for the links, but they don't really bring anything conclusive as they also imply that Milch essentially killed it:

First Link:

...Therefore 1942 saw the 222 back in development after the unsatisfactory performance of te 222C and D-series...

This "unsatisfactory performance" is in reference to Milch upping the requirements yet again.

Second Link:

...The Jumo 222 is an example of partially war related uncoordinated planning on the one hand and technical excessive requirements on the other.

This also implies Milch constantly upping the requirements.

[stg 44]

I have that one too and it provides about half a page of info that doesn't really clarify the situation other than saying the guy that ran the project said that he would have delivered on time if the RLM hadn't kept demanding upgrades. He maybe be right, but I've also seen otherwise:
https://books.google.com/books?id=Tt7g_ ... 22&f=false
https://books.google.com/books?id=eJ7oC ... 22&f=false

Thanks for the links, but they don't really bring anything conclusive as they also imply that Milch essentially killed it:

First Link:

...Therefore 1942 saw the 222 back in development after the unsatisfactory performance of te 222C and D-series...

This "unsatisfactory performance" is in reference to Milch upping the requirements yet again.

Second Link:

...The Jumo 222 is an example of partially war related uncoordinated planning on the one hand and technical excessive requirements on the other.

This also implies Milch constantly upping the requirements.

I get what you're saying, but we still don't have definitive evidence until we get Budrass' statements on the matter; he is the only one I've heard of that has definitive evidence. So please let me know if and when you get what he says, because I've very interested in the alternate history potential of that engine; from 1942 on it would have been extremely helpful.

[SpicyJuan]

I have that one too and it provides about half a page of info that doesn't really clarify the situation other than saying the guy that ran the project said that he would have delivered on time if the RLM hadn't kept demanding upgrades. He maybe be right, but I've also seen otherwise:
https://books.google.com/books?id=Tt7g_ ... 22&f=false
https://books.google.com/books?id=eJ7oC ... 22&f=false

Thanks for the links, but they don't really bring anything conclusive as they also imply that Milch essentially killed it:

First Link:

...Therefore 1942 saw the 222 back in development after the unsatisfactory performance of te 222C and D-series...

This "unsatisfactory performance" is in reference to Milch upping the requirements yet again.

Second Link:

...The Jumo 222 is an example of partially war related uncoordinated planning on the one hand and technical excessive requirements on the other.

This also implies Milch constantly upping the requirements.

I get what you're saying, but we still don't have definitive evidence until we get Budrass' statements on the matter; he is the only one I've heard of that has definitive evidence. So please let me know if and when you get what he says, because I've very interested in the alternate history potential of that engine; from 1942 on it would have been extremely helpful.

Yes, I as well, I'll let you know if I find him.

[stg 44]

Just imagine the performance of the Do217, Ju188/388, or working Ju288 with the Jumo 222 working.

[SpicyJuan]

Just imagine the performance of the Do217, Ju188/388, or working Ju288 with the Jumo 222 working.

Yeah, it's insane. Would it have been better to fit the He 219 with Jumo 222's or the Ju 388J? Or would both work with the 219 being a stopgap for the 388 to enter production?

[stg 44]

For the sake of production its better to go with the Ju88 derivatives than start up a totally new design. The 388J would have been perfect.

[stg 44]

At first a non-high altitude Ju188 nightfighter would have been fine until it morphed into the 388J and just avoid the He219 altogether:
http://www.ju388.de/Versions.html

Even the Ju88G fitted with the 222 would have been great. The Ju88G fitted a similar weight and size engine in the BMW 801, so it shouldn't be an issue to mount.

[SpicyJuan]

At first a non-high altitude Ju188 nightfighter would have been fine until it morphed into the 388J and just avoid the He219 altogether:
http://www.ju388.de/Versions.html

How soon could the 388 enter service? It seems like the entire project was delayed a year due to unavailable engines.

[stg 44]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junkers_Ju_388
First ones were delivered in August 1944, but was in response to the B-29. A non-high altitude Ju188 or Ju88G with the 222 would be ready in mid-1943 at the latest assuming the Jumo 222A was available in mid-1942 as planned, 9 months earlier than the Jumo 213 historically. If Ostmark was ready on time then it would be putting out at least 500-800 units per month starting in March 1943 IIRC, though maybe some earlier even. I imagine they could get a smaller facility like the Jumo factory in Leipzig converted by the end of 1942. The Jumo 222 E/F should be ready by mid-1943. The Ju88G with Jumo 222 would be a great Mosquito swatter in 1943 and stay competitive into 1944 with the E/F and later C3 fuel version that supposedly could get up to 3000hp (the E/F could do 2900hp with boost, otherwise 1900 at altitude on cruise).

[SpicyJuan]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junkers_Ju_388
First ones were delivered in August 1944, but was in response to the B-29. A non-high altitude Ju188 or Ju88G with the 222 would be ready in mid-1943 at the latest assuming the Jumo 222A was available in mid-1942 as planned, 9 months earlier than the Jumo 213 historically. If Ostmark was ready on time then it would be putting out at least 500-800 units per month starting in March 1943 IIRC, though maybe some earlier even. I imagine they could get a smaller facility like the Jumo factory in Leipzig converted by the end of 1942. The Jumo 222 E/F should be ready by mid-1943. The Ju88G with Jumo 222 would be a great Mosquito swatter in 1943 and stay competitive into 1944 with the E/F and later C3 fuel version that supposedly could get up to 3000hp (the E/F could do 2900hp with boost, otherwise 1900 at altitude on cruise).

Wow, how would the Ta 154 perform with it? Would it be worth it instead of the 388? Or the same with the 219, that it wouldn't be worth sacrificing production.

[stg 44]

It wouldn't, the Ta-154 was a mess regardless of engines and cancelled because it kept falling apart.