JAG13, stop with the cheek right now. It is NOT approved of on this forum. I don't know what sort of forums you're used to, but it's banned here. Get used to that.
Coming from you the one that uses smilies liberaly? Thats rich!
Smilies are permitted, "low forms of speech" are not. Period.
Cut off the power? That is rather easy and the Turks had actually been preparing,
I'm sure YOU can provide evidence of that. Reference please.
it is no coincidence that their army had been mobilized since 1940, that would mean to usual pre-radar precautions, spotters, black-outs, etc. and they can always draw on German experience.
If you knew anything about civil defence, then you'd be aware that it's VERY rarely carried out by the armed services of any nation but by "parallel" civil organisations. Mobilised armies and military formations tend to be posted at potential targets for enemy action on the ground - not stationed a man on every street shouting at people to put their lights out or pull their curtains. THAT is the level of blackout that is required;
for the Turkish Army to be on every street in Turkey doing THAT....the British could just walk into Turkey unopposed and wrap the place up!
By the way - exactly HOW much of Anatolia did the Turkish national power grid cover in 1941?
I wonder just how few towns would simply pulling the plug REALLY black out? And of course....how many people IN those towns could and would be using electric lighting?
How many major junctions in the Turkish railway system were outside towns or cities???
How many did inside?
YOU style yourself the supposed expert on the Turkish railway network -
you tell US how many towns or villages the railway network passed through...
Against railroads? Thats what we are talking about here, and with a few Wellingtons...
Few??? Perhaps YOU should check the number of RAF bombers in the Eastern Med by mid and late 1941...
And remember, they were missing a LOT, so even if they do bomb, they will miss, a LOT, and giving the railroads resilience...
If they miss the rail tracks or even the junctions, marshalling yards, switch and signalling gear etc...then they hit
the towns around them How long do you think there will be good relations between the Germans and the Turks, once the Turks' agreemwnt to let the Germans use their rail network brings British bombs down on Turkish civilians? Remember - the Turkish Army may have been "pro-German" as you call it...although interesting elements of the Turkish
armed forces were
not ...but
the Turkish head of state was VERY aware of what Turkey's allying themselves with the Central European Powers had cost them in WWI...
Because, you see...
Remember that you are not attacking Turkey, you are attacking the German logistical chain, so they would make sure there is flak were is needed, and if radars and nightfighters are needed they would be deployed there as well, but I doubt it would come to that because of a handfull of Wellingtons...
But the Germans would deploy there as well, its not like they would leave the safety of their supply chain to the Turks, so if the RAF ever becomes more than a handful of Wellingtons then an appropriate response would be implemented, yes, including radar like in most occupied countries that faced RAF raids.
And remember, they would miss, a LOT, so even if they bomb they wont affect the railroads.
No; once the Turks allow the Germans to station ANY form of defence INSIDE Turkey to protect that logistical chain, as opposed to leaving it to the Turks within Turkey....in the eyes of the world
Turkey is no longer Neutral it will have become if not an outright German ally then a "co-belligerent". That's how it worked, I'm afraid.
There might be German advice...but if the Turks permit any active GERMAN defence of the Turkish rail network, any deployment of German forces under arms inside Turkey for whatever reason - Turkey has joined the war.
The Turks were in war footing since 1940, the whole structure, including raid spotters, an obvious and easy one since they were advised by the RAF...
You DO realise what the RAF "advice" consisted of until 1943, don't you???
Has that actually ever stopped the Kurds?
After 1937, when was the next armed Kurd uprising?
You see, there you go again
It doesn't need an Kurd uprising at all....just a disaffected Kurdish population to shelter and support the SOE.
To begin with...
Yeah... what results... that can be atributable to the SOE...
Really? That's a real, honest-to-god question?
in consitions similat to Turkey's, were they were already under surveillance and based on British legations of all places, meaning that they would lose their support net on day 1 of the war...
Want a for-instance???
Well, in 1941, the Greek government in temporary exile on Crete were VERY aware of the existence and opreparations of the SOE for a german invasion....
and they demanded it all be halted. And it was...
And yet - despite the opposition of the Greek government...
and that opposition to SOE operations on Greek territory continued in the Delta - and despite the "opposition" of the Germans on Crete - in 1944 the SOE-supplied, trained and networked Cretan Resistance forces, both Communist and non-Communist, the SOE networking /training/supporting BOTH groups
even though they occasionally "went to war" with each other...forced the withdrawal of the German garrison from ALL over the island into one town, forced its SURRENDER, with the British havng to guarantee their safety
from the Cretans.
Do you actually understand that? After the Greek government demanded the SOE end its anti-invasion preparations, and John Pendlebury was himself killed...the SOE
went back to Crete after the invasion and from a standing start with its trained/supported local resisters
entirely liberated Crete.
Perhaps you should take a look at the number of locations and areas where SOE operations failed entirely, or all hands were lost...and the SOE kept inserting agents and networking resisters and carrying out their own covert actions over and over again DESPITE earlier failures. Do you
REALLY think that deporting the
KNOWN SOE agents in the British Embassy would
STOP SOE operations in Turkey
for the rest of the war???
And yet none of those ever reached the level the Turks were willing and did reach, all of those involved invaded countries where logically people really took an issue with the German presence
Seriously? Is that the
real level of your knowledge on all this? You
really don't know how "thin" opposition was in so many Occupied European nations for several years???
in this case the country itself would gleefully carry out the punishment if a tribe or some people betray its country.
Ahem....one word -
Milice
And yes, I know about the resistance and their sacrifices, but this is a whole different environment, this is not killing a few to disuade people, this is killing thousands to make the problem people dissapear and that is what you are missing or seem unable to understand, perhaps because it is too horrific to grasp.
And you think this is going to be so easy
once the British start arming the Kurds or any other opposition to Ankara?
By the way - I really think you SHOULD read a decent history of the events on Crete - you'll find that there the Germans
DID at times carry out almost-systemic attempts to wipe out opposition and local civilian populations...and all it did was create FURTHER oppostion to their occupation - with the eventual results I noted above
There's nothing remarkable or unique about circumstances in Turkey, you know; government over-reaction ALWAYS, EVERYWHERE, causes growing resentment and a spiral of resistance and counter-resistance violence...in this case with the British waiting to take advantage of it. Which they usually did
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