an alternate 1942 offensive

[David1819]

It wuld not work,and if it worked,the results would be meaningless

What would your alternate offensive be then?
Looking at the situation below before Case Blue the only viable option is a second attempt on Moscow what else could they do?
AGS could strike deep into the USSR in direction of Gorki then strike the city from the south.

[BDV]

Well, what else changes in German planning?

Leningrad?
Is there a plan of what to do with the civilians/captured troops? Can these 1.5 million be put to some productive use? The best solution is a set piece battle with West Front artillery and troops during rasputitsa, deployed using the railsystem in the Baltic Countries and their ports (leaving only minimal Atlantic Wall protectors during Atlantic Wall storms).

Otherwise, wreck the key plants with some focused bombing and then "allow" the Soviets to relieve the siege. Simultaneously, pull the trrops protecting finninsh teritorry, especially given the Phoney War the Finns are engaged in. Use these forces in other places.

South

Taganrog-Baku 1400 km some through difficult mountainouis ranges. Taganrog-Astrakhan 850 km of flat terrain. So Astrakhan may be a better bet than Baku, also if Donets rather than Don is taken as defense line, also limits the overextension of the flank/rear protectors. Or, at a minimum if the Axis defensive line follows the Rossosh Milerovo line (with the railline right behind them), not trying to follow the Don bend. Stalingrad, if forces available, could be taken from the South, rather than East. If the Caucasus is to fall, then the Sevastopol needs not need to be stormed. Rather, a significant italo-german torpedoboat presence (up to triple digits), and 20+ small Uboats (not the historical 6), starting in Spring 1942, not Fall, should make supplying and/or evacuating Sevastopol an expensive proposition until the day (fall of Tuapse) it becomes an impossible proposition. The forces that took Sevastopol should help with Rostov-on-Don instead, because that's the key to Caucasus, thus hastening the fall of Sevastopol from the rear*.

I don't think that the North-South option was necessarily a bad one, just that in light of 1941 developments the Axis needed to change significantly their approach to OstFront, and not only the Wehrmacht. But 1942 was unfortunately simply more of the bloody but losing same approach...


*In toto, the invasion of Crimea was one of the bigger boondoggles of 1941 and early 1942, courtesy of Adolf's favourite self-aggrandizing bootlicking Junker, Erich "Munchhausen" Lewinski-Manstein.

[ChrisDR68]

It wuld not work,and if it worked,the results would be meaningless

What would your alternate offensive be then?
Looking at the situation below before Case Blue the only viable option is a second attempt on Moscow what else could they do?
AGS could strike deep into the USSR in direction of Gorki then strike the city from the south.

How many Soviet troops were in that large bulge in the German lines to the north east of Smolensk?

Pinching that out would be an obvious first mini campaign after the Spring thaw in 1942.

[ljadw]

It wuld not work,and if it worked,the results would be meaningless

What would your alternate offensive be then?
Looking at the situation below before Case Blue the only viable option is a second attempt on Moscow what else could they do?
AGS could strike deep into the USSR in direction of Gorki then strike the city from the south.

Typhoon had failed in 1941,why should a new attack on Moscow havz more chances to succeed in 1942?

Besides,if a second attempt on Moscow had succeeded, what would be the results ? Would the SU collaps if Moscow was captured in june 1942?

The only chance for the Germans was Fall Blau,chance, because even if Blau was successful,there was only a small,hypothetical chance that the SU would give up .

[BDV]

The only chance for the Germans was Fall Blau,chance, because even if Blau was successful,there was only a small,hypothetical chance that the SU would give up .

Well, Fall Blau was half successful. given Soviet Union lost the coal of Donbass. The economy of Bolshevik Russia (like that of Europe) was running on coal. Perception of the importance of oil is skewed due to its direct use in high-tech military implements (armored vehicles, planes)

[David1819]

OK I have devised an alternate 1942 offensive.

After some consideration plus the superpower of hindsight I feel the best alternative for 1942 should not be anything spectacular or ambitious. This is more of a plan that would stabilize the front and get Germany in a much better position for later during the war.


Looking at the map above its just a rough plan nothing detailed. AGS is represented by the white arrows

1.Army Group B that was in reality designated for the Volga/Stalingrad campaign will instead go straight to the Caucus region to secure the oil fields and establish a series or solid defences all the way to the Caspian sea. Once the region is taken the 2nd army, 6th army and 4th Panzer will establish a defensive line ranging to the Caspain sea. The Hungarian and Italian army's will hold the oil fields

2. Army Group A that would have been sent to the Caucauses will instead be sent UP north. They will relieve and support AGC along the defensive lines, whilst simultaneous units be dispersed deep behind the German lines to suppress and destroy the partisan offensives that where attacking ATC from behind

3. Once AGS has reinforced the defensive lines and is keeping the partisan forces at bay, Parts of AGC with panzer and infantry will launch an offensive north illustrated in green this will attempt to completely cut off Leningrad and join up with Finland unifying the front up north.

[ljadw]

The only chance for the Germans was Fall Blau,chance, because even if Blau was successful,there was only a small,hypothetical chance that the SU would give up .

Well, Fall Blau was half successful. given Soviet Union lost the coal of Donbass. The economy of Bolshevik Russia (like that of Europe) was running on coal. Perception of the importance of oil is skewed due to its direct use in high-tech military implements (armored vehicles, planes)

Half successfull means : a failure,because the result was still the Soviets in Berlin,not the Germans at the Urals .

About the coal :

Soviet coal production in 1940:146 million ton, in 1945 : 156 million ton .

Besides,during the war,the importance of coal for the SU was decreasing (the socalled energy mix),coal was replaced by wood .

[ljadw]

OK I have devised an alternate 1942 offensive.

After some consideration plus the superpower of hindsight I feel the best alternative for 1942 should not be anything spectacular or ambitious. This is more of a plan that would stabilize the front and get Germany in a much better position for later during the war.
.

That's a wrong point of view and this plan would be suicidal :Germany could not afford a third year of fighting in the east : the war in the East had to be finished in 1942,one way or another .

[David1819]

OK I have devised an alternate 1942 offensive.

After some consideration plus the superpower of hindsight I feel the best alternative for 1942 should not be anything spectacular or ambitious. This is more of a plan that would stabilize the front and get Germany in a much better position for later during the war.
.

That's a wrong point of view and this plan would be suicidal :Germany could not afford a third year of fighting in the east : the war in the East had to be finished in 1942,one way or another .

I disagree! The correct point of view would be to prepare for a long and gruelling war! the blitzkreig failed and element of suprise is gone! If the German army could not afford a third year of fighting where did Kursk come from then?

The German army is in a bad situation and cannot afford to throw any risky punches, If you think my alternate 1942 is suicidal how about sending ACS into a city with no strategic importance only to get surrounded and freeze to death? oh wait that's actually took place

Forget Stalingrand, go for the Oil fields re enforce AGC and Completely cut off Leningrad so winter 1942/43 kills everyone in the city. My plan actually makes a very bad situation just a less bad situation and i think that's all Germany could do in 1942.

Don't forget every military plan has risks you cannot come up with a plan that make victory 100% certain.

[gurn]

I would equate the situation on the Eastern front thusly:

You are confronted by three grizzly bears.

You only have two rounds left in your rifle.

No matter which two you shoot you are pretty well screwed.

It is human nature to assume having made a mistake, any other options must be a better solution. In life there is not always a correct answer.

Germany was doomed after the failure of Barbarossa. They just didn't know it.

If the bears charge towards you:
First shot is for the guy beside you, the last shot is for yourself, if the three bears don't stop to play with your injured companion.

[ljadw]

Forget Stalingrand, go for the Oil fields

The Germans were going for the Oil Fields

[ljadw]

I feel the best alternative for 1942 should not be anything spectacul
Looking at the map above its just a rough plan nothing detailed. AGS is represented by the white arrows

1.Army Group B that was in reality designated for the Volga/Stalingrad campaign will instead go straight to the Caucus region to secure the oil fields and establish a series or solid defences all the way to the Caspian sea. Once the region is taken the 2nd army, 6th army and 4th Panzer will establish a defensive line ranging to the Caspain sea. The Hungarian and Italian army's will hold the oil fields

2. Army Group A that would have been sent to the Caucauses will instead be sent UP north. They will relieve and support AGC along the defensive lines, whilst simultaneous units be dispersed deep behind the German lines to suppress and destroy the partisan offensives that where attacking ATC from behind

3. Once AGS has reinforced the defensive lines and is keeping the partisan forces at bay, Parts of AGC with panzer and infantry will launch an offensive north illustrated in green this will attempt to completely cut off Leningrad and join up with Finland unifying the front up north.

3 jokes

1)nothing spectacular

2)AG B going to the Caucasus : forget it : out of the question

3)AG C cutting of Leningrad : forget it :the crow distance Smolensk-Leningrad = 583 km,the real distance would be 1000 km

[ljadw]

I disagree! The correct point of view would be to prepare for a long and gruelling war!

General Thomas (the economic expert of the OKW ) would disagree with you :In may 1942,he said : (my translation) "If in 1942,we can't defeat the SU definitively,or at least advance to the Urals and the Caucasus, one will have to judge Germany's situation as very unfavourable or even hopeless.It is more than improbable that we can do in 1943 what we failed to do in 1942.Because the economic factors will more and more have a negative effect for Germany .

Source : Germany and WWII (German edition) Tome VI, P 815

[BDV]

From where they were, as of December 15, 1941, germans got a good shot in by November 1st 1942. They did cut off the largest source of industrial power - coal. They did get to Maikop. That, despite distractors like the Sevastopol siege and the suboptimal naval effort in the Black Sea.

The flip side, is that some of the german success was due to the irrational way Germans went about theie war aims. More rational behavior, the Soviet reaction may be more effective. The big Soviet failure at Izium opened a large opportunity for the Axis, and that failure may be of much different dimensions (smaller) without the Fall Blau.

As to starving Leningrad, AFAIK, Russians did remove the able bodied men not engaged in defense in Spring 1942. So if Astrakhan and Donets basin are conquered, Germans can be sitting pretty. Moreso, if Tuapse is overrun.

[David1819]

Forget Stalingrand, go for the Oil fields

The Germans were going for the Oil Fields

Yes I know but it became a second neglected objective in the south due to the Battle of Stalingrad it should have been 100% focus of the southern activity.

Leningrad was nearly completely surrounded and battered by long rang weapons I would have finished it off taking 1 major city is better than none. Elements of AGC could easily move up north in the spring help surround Leningrad and join up with the Finns.

Besides if we all work together and carefully think thing's through with the magic superpower of hindsight we probably could come up with really a good 1942 plan