an alternate 1942 offensive

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alltoes
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Re: an alternate 1942 offensive

#31

Post by alltoes » 13 Sep 2014, 06:28

I always wondered why Stalingrad was not the initial objective with Case Blau. It's position appears to be a pivot to the Caucuses. I have read a number of articles which indicate Stalingrad during the initial summer campaign was not well defended. If immediately after the capture of Voronezeh the Wehrmacht drove quickly, could they have occupied Stalingrad with minimal losses? I also read there was not much oil for AGS. But it appears there was enough to drive quickly to Stalingrad.
If this occurred, the rail line from Astrakhan could be cut. This would have virtually removed almost all oil to the Russians......atleast until barges were built to cross the Caspian or oil transport via Vladivostock from USA.

ljadw
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Re: an alternate 1942 offensive

#32

Post by ljadw » 13 Sep 2014, 06:52

alltoes wrote: This would have virtually removed almost all oil to the Russians

This is questionable,besides,the result would be disappointing(as it was in the OTL).


Sid Guttridge
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Re: an alternate 1942 offensive

#33

Post by Sid Guttridge » 13 Sep 2014, 12:39

The question is: How vital was Caucasus Oil to Germany's future prospects of victory and was there any other strategic factor that so outweighed it that it required alternative action elsewhere on the Eastern Front?

I can't think of anything. Archangel/Murmansk were not the only avenues by which the USSR was receiving Lend-Lease and could be interdicted by sea and air (i.e. PQ17). There were Persia and the Far East as well. Leningrad had little value in itself beyond releasing some German troops. Indeed, the move of Manstein's 11th Army from the Crimea to the Leningrad Front in mid 1942 seriously weakened Blau.

I would suggest the strategic objective of Blau was reasonable and that it would have been better served with an extra German army (Manstein's 11th) and less diversion onto prestige targets like Stalingrad.

Cheers,

Sid.

David1819
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Re: an alternate 1942 offensive

#34

Post by David1819 » 13 Sep 2014, 17:38

Stalingrad is an impossible objective! Sure the Germans could take Stalingrad that is by all means possible but how do we prevent a Red Army encirclement? I cannot think of any situation where the Soviets will not surround the city and let the winter wrath finish the job.

At this point in time early 1942, The Germans have strategic skills and mobile tactics that can give them the upper hand in large scale open ground warfare but when it comes to urban warfare it gives the Red Army a more level playing field so situations like Stalingrad should be avoided.

ChrisDR68
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Re: an alternate 1942 offensive

#35

Post by ChrisDR68 » 13 Sep 2014, 20:01

BDV wrote:
ChrisDR68 wrote:
ljadw wrote:It wuld not work,and if it worked,the results would be meaningless
Perhaps not if the mobile forces of AGS then wheeled south and captured Astrakhan after the fall of Moscow and cut the Caucasus off from the rest of Russia.

Then the Germans would be in a good position for a third strategic offensive in 1943.
By which time the AngloAmericans would/did come'a'knocking. Ergo, Adolf's predicament. A late victory in the East had been achieved previously, with zero effect to Germany's war fortunes. It would have been, again, a hollow victory.
That's true although things didn't get critical in the west until mid-1944 so Hitler would still likely have had the 1943 campaigning season to try and fight the Soviets to a favourable standstill.

A spring campaign into the Caucasus aimed at occupying as much territory as possible (perhaps up to the Caucasian mountain range). This could be carried out by the mobile and Alpine units of the Italian and Romanian armies together with some German mobile formations.

In the main summer campaign the initial action would probably be fighting off a major Soviet offensive aimed at recapturing Moscow. Once that had been achieved a general offensive would be launched in the direction of Gorky with the aim of getting to the Volga river (with this natural barrier being made the new eastern Reich frontier).

David1819
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Re: an alternate 1942 offensive

#36

Post by David1819 » 13 Sep 2014, 21:58

Sid Guttridge wrote: I would suggest the strategic objective of Blau was reasonable and that it would have been better served with an extra German army (Manstein's 11th) and less diversion onto prestige targets like Stalingrad.

Cheers,

Sid.
Agreed, However its only the Oil fields that make's Objective Blau worth fighting, Covering vast amounts of space in the south might look good on a map but in reality it only makes it difficult to manage and over stretches the front even more. I would suggest only occupy land in the south that has a much needed commodity such as oil.

With Stalingrad out the picture would Case Blau need as many troops as it did? My thoughts where to send the six army up north to fight partisan groups that where attacking AGC from the west and also help AGC consolidate its defences and supply lines?

With AGC relived by part of AGS, Mobilised units from AGC could attack up north and surround Leningrad and join up with Finland allowing them to get more involved in the conflict?

Just a thought, As for the Stalingrad-Leningrad situation didn't Hitler become obsessed with Stalingrad because it was named after Stalin? In the end this conflict just became personal, It would boost Hitler's ego and annoy Stalin that's about it. However taking Leningrad could be more of a psychological blow to the soviet people considering that Lenin was the founder of the USSR.
If taking city's named after people had a psychological impact? Plus ACN was already there Leningrad makes more sense I think.

alltoes
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Re: an alternate 1942 offensive

#37

Post by alltoes » 14 Sep 2014, 16:30

Case Blau also involved a "traffic jam" just beyond Rostov-on-Don. The German allowed Russia to fall back into Stalingrad. This is why the fight was long......and the entire city was never occupied. If the Germans "blitzkreig" into Stalingrad, it appears it would not have taken as long to occupy the entire city. Once this is done, or in the process, the area can be expanded.

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BDV
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Re: an alternate 1942 offensive

#38

Post by BDV » 16 Sep 2014, 15:42

alltoes wrote:I always wondered why Stalingrad was not the initial objective with Case Blau. It's position appears to be a pivot to the Caucuses.
The pivot to Caucasus is Rostov-on-Don, and it had been LOST the previous November due to Manstein's follies.

I have read a number of articles which indicate Stalingrad during the initial summer campaign was not well defended. If immediately after the capture of Voronezeh the Wehrmacht drove quickly, could they have occupied Stalingrad with minimal losses?
Stalingrad is 600 km from Voronezh. It is a difficult proposition for the Axis forces to defend that long a flank. Maybe if the advance into Caucasus is nixed. Actually, maybe not a bad ideea, feint towards Samara and drive SouthEast, while the other German speahead is driving straight East on the right bank of the lower Don, catching the Soviets into a huge net, punking the Izyum offensive even harder than historical...

The second infantry army, the hungarians, and the italian corps can provide flank protection/infantry support for the northern attackers, while the 11th and 17th support the southern thrust, while Romanians can keep the Soviet forces in Crimea busy, and the 6th army provides the strategic reserve.
Nobody expects the Fallschirm! Our chief weapon is surprise; surprise and fear; fear and surprise. Our 2 weapons are fear and surprise; and ruthless efficiency. Our *3* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency; and almost fanatical devotion

David1819
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Re: an alternate 1942 offensive

#39

Post by David1819 » 16 Sep 2014, 19:46

BDV wrote:
alltoes wrote:I always wondered why Stalingrad was not the initial objective with Case Blau. It's position appears to be a pivot to the Caucuses.
The pivot to Caucasus is Rostov-on-Don, and it had been LOST the previous November due to Manstein's follies.

I have read a number of articles which indicate Stalingrad during the initial summer campaign was not well defended. If immediately after the capture of Voronezeh the Wehrmacht drove quickly, could they have occupied Stalingrad with minimal losses?
Stalingrad is 600 km from Voronezh. It is a difficult proposition for the Axis forces to defend that long a flank. Maybe if the advance into Caucasus is nixed. Actually, maybe not a bad ideea, feint towards Samara and drive SouthEast, while the other German speahead is driving straight East on the right bank of the lower Don, catching the Soviets into a huge net, punking the Izyum offensive even harder than historical...

The second infantry army, the hungarians, and the italian corps can provide flank protection/infantry support for the northern attackers, while the 11th and 17th support the southern thrust, while Romanians can keep the Soviet forces in Crimea busy, and the 6th army provides the strategic reserve.

Its very difficult to understand what you mean without illustrations when it comes to this, You probably have a good vision in your head but situations like this purely written in words makes it difficult for others to understand or see what your planning considering the vast scale of the operations and size of the area's we are discussing.

I made a rough illustation of my alternate idea.you can see the picture in past posts on this thread. would be good if you done the same, One image really is a thousand words when it comes to this

steinmetz
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Re: an alternate 1942 offensive

#40

Post by steinmetz » 24 Sep 2014, 13:44

David1819 wrote:Stalingrad is an impossible objective! Sure the Germans could take Stalingrad that is by all means possible but how do we prevent a Red Army encirclement? I cannot think of any situation where the Soviets will not surround the city and let the winter wrath finish the job.

At this point in time early 1942, The Germans have strategic skills and mobile tactics that can give them the upper hand in large scale open ground warfare but when it comes to urban warfare it gives the Red Army a more level playing field so situations like Stalingrad should be avoided.
Without an advance south, there would have been no encirclement.

steinmetz
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Re: an alternate 1942 offensive

#41

Post by steinmetz » 24 Sep 2014, 18:18

BDV wrote: The pivot to Caucasus is Rostov-on-Don, and it had been LOST the previous November due to Manstein's follies..
A strange statement as it was the 1rst Panzer army of von Kleist which took it. It was von Kleist who proposed its abandonment with the appoval of von Rundstedt which led to the replacement of the latter by Reichenau who could not hold it either( Heeresgruppe Süd , Carl Wagener Podzun Pallas p 94).

Erwinn
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Re: an alternate 1942 offensive

#42

Post by Erwinn » 24 Dec 2014, 11:34

steinmetz wrote:
BDV wrote: The pivot to Caucasus is Rostov-on-Don, and it had been LOST the previous November due to Manstein's follies..
A strange statement as it was the 1rst Panzer army of von Kleist which took it. It was von Kleist who proposed its abandonment with the appoval of von Rundstedt which led to the replacement of the latter by Reichenau who could not hold it either( Heeresgruppe Süd , Carl Wagener Podzun Pallas p 94).
As far as I know, they only demanded withdrawal to get in a better defensive position for winter. The men was too exhausted and Army Group was overextended supply wise.

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Re: an alternate 1942 offensive

#43

Post by Shadow_Xusiyao » 23 Jan 2024, 12:44

From my perspective, I think it makes no sense to attack the oil fields. Even if the germans capture Stalingrad and Baku, it won't help Germans and weaken the Soviets in any way. As Germans can no longer attack in all three fronts, the only thing they can do in 1942 is to launch a big-scale tactical offensive, encircle and eliminate substantial Soviet forces and secure better positions for defense.

If everything still happens according to OTL until 1942 March, I think Germans can revise their plans as this:
1. Send reinforcements and replacements to AGS and AGC at the same time (especially 1st, 2nd, 4th Panzer and 6th, 9th Army);
2. Still launch tactical offensive in the region of Crimea and Kharkov and encircle Soviet forces;
3. 11th Army will be split and sent to Orel front and AGB as reserves;
4. Launch Blau I and Blau II exactly the same as OTL and split AGS into AGA and AGB;
5. AGA including 17th Army and some Italian and Romanian armies will guard the Don flank near Rostov and AGB will immediately head north towards
Saratov while the 2nd Panzer will dash eastwards;
6. Encircle and eliminate as many Soviet forces in open terrain as possible and AGC and AGS will link up.
7. If tasks above are completed before October, spared troops and be sent to help eliminate salients in the North and Center.

During these main operations, Wehrmacht can fight under much better logistical condition (compared to OTL) and eliminate the Soviet forces in mobile warfare. And if possible, the Germans can launch the 2nd Moscow campaign in 1943 after full moblization and pursue other strategic goals when they have both numerical and technical superiority.
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Aida1
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Re: an alternate 1942 offensive

#44

Post by Aida1 » 23 Jan 2024, 13:37

Shadow_Xusiyao wrote:
23 Jan 2024, 12:44
From my perspective, I think it makes no sense to attack the oil fields. Even if the germans capture Stalingrad and Baku, it won't help Germans and weaken the Soviets in any way. As Germans can no longer attack in all three fronts, the only thing they can do in 1942 is to launch a big-scale tactical offensive, encircle and eliminate substantial Soviet forces and secure better positions for defense.

If everything still happens according to OTL until 1942 March, I think Germans can revise their plans as this:
1. Send reinforcements and replacements to AGS and AGC at the same time (especially 1st, 2nd, 4th Panzer and 6th, 9th Army);
Germany only had the means to restore the strength of AGS. AGC and AGN were kept understrength.

glenn239
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Re: an alternate 1942 offensive

#45

Post by glenn239 » 23 Jan 2024, 19:24

David1819 wrote:
11 Sep 2014, 00:27
What would your alternate offensive be then?
Looking at the situation below before Case Blue the only viable option is a second attempt on Moscow what else could they do?
AGS could strike deep into the USSR in direction of Gorki then strike the city from the south.
Suspend all offensive operations on the Eastern Front and open negotiations with the Soviets to try and establish exactly how Berlin could get Moscow in a mood to pretend that the disaster of Barbarossa had never happened.

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