Manstein's backhand strategy is used from March 1943 onwards

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David1819
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Manstein's backhand strategy is used from March 1943 onwards

#1

Post by David1819 » 29 Jun 2014, 23:21

After the success of Third Battle of Kharkov Hitler decides to go with Von Manstiens backhand blow approach to the eastern front.

This will mean the German army tactically retreats allowing the Red army to fill the void. Once overstretched and in open space the Germans lying in wait launch counter attacks on the soviet advance cutting off and surrounding the spearheads of the Red Army's advance.

This will definitely mean no battle of Kursk as the soviets will have to be on the offensive like the Germans where at Kursk

How do you think the war on Eastern front will now unfold? I believe it would make the advance much more difficult for the Red Army and will never reach Berlin and the USA will take the city first

What do you think?

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Baltasar
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Re: Manstein's backhand strategy is used from March 1943 onw

#2

Post by Baltasar » 02 Jul 2014, 09:43

How long would the Russians need to adopt to this? Once they do, they'll have the upper hand again.


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BDV
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Re: Manstein's backhand strategy is used from March 1943 onw

#3

Post by BDV » 02 Jul 2014, 13:04

Fool me twice...
Nobody expects the Fallschirm! Our chief weapon is surprise; surprise and fear; fear and surprise. Our 2 weapons are fear and surprise; and ruthless efficiency. Our *3* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency; and almost fanatical devotion

pugsville
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Re: Manstein's backhand strategy is used from March 1943 onw

#4

Post by pugsville » 02 Jul 2014, 14:52

err The Russians were ahead of the game here, the use of the counter offensive launched after the Enemy had been exhausted in his own offensive was a trademark read army strategy from the gates of Moscow.

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Old_Fossil
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Re: Manstein's backhand strategy is used from March 1943 onw

#5

Post by Old_Fossil » 02 Jul 2014, 15:23

A better question is why would Hitler adopt a losing strategy? Hitler was determined to win and the only way for that to happen is to knock Russia out of the war. Adopting Manstein's tactics is a strategy for losing the war more slowly.
"If things were different, they wouldn't be the same."

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Baltasar
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Re: Manstein's backhand strategy is used from March 1943 onw

#6

Post by Baltasar » 02 Jul 2014, 15:44

Because the Germans couldn't reasonably expect to win the war here?

Err... Hitler, reason... ehm...

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Re: Manstein's backhand strategy is used from March 1943 onw

#7

Post by Old_Fossil » 02 Jul 2014, 16:16

The OP stated as part of the WI that Hitler would still be in charge. He didn't state that Hitler had suffered a stroke or other change in personality. Hitler was determined to choose strategies that held out a chance for ultimate victory. Manstein's tactics only gave hope of holding off the Russians. Hitler would only have accepted this if he changed his goal from victory to one of negotiated stalemate. Like the way the Japanese hoped to inflict losses on the US until the US grew war weary and agreed to let the Japanese keep their empire. This was never going to happen.
"If things were different, they wouldn't be the same."

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Re: Manstein's backhand strategy is used from March 1943 onw

#8

Post by David1819 » 03 Jul 2014, 23:58

Old_Fossil wrote:A better question is why would Hitler adopt a losing strategy? Hitler was determined to win and the only way for that to happen is to knock Russia out of the war. Adopting Manstein's tactics is a strategy for losing the war more slowly.
Why would Hitler adopt a losing strategy? well he was losing and lost the strategic initiative that's why Manstein's strategy would have been more suitable.

Hitler knew the only way to knock out the USSR was with a rapid summer blitzkrieg. After Moscow 41 he knew this was now a war of attrition because the red army was still intact and fighting on. So the only way to victory would be the wonder weapons program. So if Manstein's strategy was implemented it would have given them far longer time to develop this technology.

Hitler's orders of no retreat fight to the last man to the last bullet plus offensive operations just made life easier for the Red Army. After operation Bagration Germany was sitting duck.

Now how would a strategic Offensive Operation like Bargration 1944 do if the German army that would have been at Kursk 1943 hade been dug in lying in wait along with army group centre fully replenished and supply lines re established?

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BDV
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Re: Manstein's

#9

Post by BDV » 04 Jul 2014, 16:43

I don't think Manstein "anything" should be used.

Some of the discussion on this Forum about the German defensive tactics on the OstFront leaves me wondering, though. Seems that the sparse heavy AT assets were pulled back. Reminded me of the (German!!!) critique of the 19th century:
... in time of war we have no hesitation in sacrificing one hundred men in the bloom of their years to save one cannon... the production of the cannon is the cause of an expenditure of the state treasury, while human beings are again available for nothing by means of a simple conscription order.
Johann Heinrich von Thunen, Isolated State
Nobody expects the Fallschirm! Our chief weapon is surprise; surprise and fear; fear and surprise. Our 2 weapons are fear and surprise; and ruthless efficiency. Our *3* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency; and almost fanatical devotion

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Re: Manstein's backhand strategy is used from March 1943 onw

#10

Post by ljadw » 04 Jul 2014, 16:56

David1819 wrote:After the success of Third Battle of Kharkov Hitler decides to go with Von Manstiens backhand blow approach to the eastern front.

This will mean the German army tactically retreats allowing the Red army to fill the void. Once overstretched and in open space the Germans lying in wait launch counter attacks on the soviet advance cutting off and surrounding the spearheads of the Red Army's advance.

This will definitely mean no battle of Kursk as the soviets will have to be on the offensive like the Germans where at Kursk
This is not correct, as after the summer of 1943,Germany no longer had the mobile forces needed to hold the front in the East ;thus,there would be no German counter attacks .

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Don71
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Re: Manstein's backhand strategy is used from March 1943 onw

#11

Post by Don71 » 04 Jul 2014, 17:12

And you will tell us, that without the Battle of Kursk, this would be the same?

You are aware that the Battle of Kursk costs all of the Wehrmachts built mobile reserves?
Your statement is clearly wrong, with a bachhand strategy and without the Battle of Kursk, the Wehrmacht would have all opportunities to counter attack, where, when and at which timeline the Wehrmacht choose.

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Re: Manstein's backhand strategy is used from March 1943 onw

#12

Post by ljadw » 04 Jul 2014, 17:45

Das Deutsche Reich und der Zweite Weltkrieg Tome VIII P 152: German panzer losses in Citadel : 252 ,which was peanuts .

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Baltasar
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Re: Manstein's backhand strategy is used from March 1943 onw

#13

Post by Baltasar » 04 Jul 2014, 18:13

Glantz & House, p. 276 gives German tank losses as 323 (includes assault guns)

Other sources give other losses, I've seen figures up 760. German tank losses in July and August was about 1300 - 1400 on the eastern front.

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Re: Manstein's backhand strategy is used from March 1943 onw

#14

Post by ljadw » 04 Jul 2014, 18:28

Glantz is not very reliable concerning German losses.

July and august is not Citadel,but Kursk and its children .(Kutuzow,etc)

A diagram on P 157 of DDRZW indicates that in december 1943,the Ostheer had more panzer/SG than at the start of Citadel .

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Re: Manstein's backhand strategy is used from March 1943 onw

#15

Post by ljadw » 04 Jul 2014, 18:39

From DDRZW: German panzer strength in the East at the start of Citadel : 3549 (SG included)

From TDI : German panzer strength in the East on 31 may 1944 :1913 + 2260 SG

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