Operation Typhoon delayed until spring 1942

[David1819]

This is a loaded question (as most WI),because your assumptions (the plan ) is totally irrealistic.

2.It was out of the question to bombard Moscow until june 1942.

The first strike on Moscow was carried out by 195 bombers in July 21 1941

http://histclo.com/essay/war/ww2/camp/e ... s-air.html

[steinmetz]

Hitler and the Wehrmacht agree in October 1941 that its best to dig in and defend through the Russian winter season.

The plan is

1. Replenish, repair and rearm AGC for an attack on Moscow in June 1942
2. Luftwaffe bases will be established near the defensive line, Moscow is to be under constant bombardment until June 1942

What will happen?

A more realistic question is what would have happened if the continuance of the offensive in november 1941 would have been abandoned in favour of a retreat on a good winter position.

[steinmetz]

This is a loaded question (as most WI),because your assumptions (the plan ) is totally irrealistic.

1.AGC could not be repaired,replenished,rearmed for an attack against Moscow in june 1942

It can certainly be if the main effort is going to be produced in its sector.

[actiondan]

Hitler and the Wehrmacht agree in October 1941 that its best to dig in and defend through the Russian winter season.

The plan is

1. Replenish, repair and rearm AGC for an attack on Moscow in June 1942
2. Luftwaffe bases will be established near the defensive line, Moscow is to be under constant bombardment until June 1942

What will happen?

A more realistic question is what would have happened if the continuance of the offensive in november 1941 would have been abandoned in favour of a retreat on a good winter position.

Would the counter offensive be less effective? Probably. But as discussed previously, there was nothing pointing to the need to go on the defensive.

[steinmetz]

And I forgot : the offensive capacity of the Ostheer had been broken in 1941, BEFORE the start of Typhoon .

For an army whose offensive spirit was allegedly broken, it achieved a lot during Typhoon.

[steinmetz]

Hitler and the Wehrmacht agree in October 1941 that its best to dig in and defend through the Russian winter season.

The plan is

1. Replenish, repair and rearm AGC for an attack on Moscow in June 1942
2. Luftwaffe bases will be established near the defensive line, Moscow is to be under constant bombardment until June 1942

What will happen?

A more realistic question is what would have happened if the continuance of the offensive in november 1941 would have been abandoned in favour of a retreat on a good winter position.

Would the counter offensive be less effective? Probably. But as discussed previously, there was nothing pointing to the need to go on the defensive.

An enemy counter offensive will certainly be less efective against a better defensive positon and an army less weakened.
After Typhoon there were good resons to doubt what could still be achieved given the imminent winter.

[actiondan]

What do you mean "after typhoon"? Typhoon/Taifun was still in progress on 5 December when the counter attacks were launched.

My point is this.. Everyone makes a big deal about whether or not Germany should have been on the defensive. As pointed out earlier, there was nothing signaling a reason to do so. Everyone thought the USSR collapse was imminent and pressure must be applied to retain that situation.

In addition, materiel losses would not be replaced in a 2nd year in Russia. Supplies were stockpiled with the intent of a seasonal victory.

[ljadw]

And I forgot : the offensive capacity of the Ostheer had been broken in 1941, BEFORE the start of Typhoon .

For an army whose offensive spirit was allegedly broken, it achieved a lot during Typhoon.

What did it achieve ?

[steinmetz]

What do you mean "after typhoon"? Typhoon/Taifun was still in progress on 5 December when the counter attacks were launched.

My point is this.. Everyone makes a big deal about whether or not Germany should have been on the defensive. As pointed out earlier, there was nothing signaling a reason to do so. Everyone thought the USSR collapse was imminent and pressure must be applied to retain that situation.

In addition, materiel losses would not be replaced in a 2nd year in Russia. Supplies were stockpiled with the intent of a seasonal victory.

It is about the resumption in november. That was not obvious anymore given that winter was appoaching and a case could be made for retreating to a winter position.

[steinmetz]

And I forgot : the offensive capacity of the Ostheer had been broken in 1941, BEFORE the start of Typhoon .

For an army whose offensive spirit was allegedly broken, it achieved a lot during Typhoon.

What did it achieve ?

Gaining a lot of terrain and inflicting huge losses on the red army would not be something an army would achieve whose offensive spirit was allegedly broken.

[ljadw]

Gaining terrain and inflicting losses were not the aims of Typhoon,this is something that you General,should know .

[steinmetz]

Gaining terrain and inflicting losses were not the aims of Typhoon,this is something that you General,should know .

What the offensive achieved was as much as could be achieved and certainly much more than an army would achieve that had lost its offensive spirit.

[actiondan]

I agree, ljadw's comments are not based on anything other than misguided personal opinion

[David1819]

OK to stay on topic

1.AGC digs in and fends off all attacks by the red army as it did anyway in the real events.
2.AGC could most certainly be repaired and replenished to some degree if needed?
3. I cannot see the luftwaffe having any issues bombing Moscow, It would make occupation more difficult but Hitler would almost certainly want it bombarded before troops enter like with stalingrad?


So spring dawns what happens? I would speculate a German defeat but they would get deep into Moscow even take the Kremlin and suburbia but the Red army would still surround the city then the winter comes and they freeze out, Moscow 42 has the same result as Stalingrad 42. Unless AGS could protect AGCs flank and break through maybe?

[actiondan]

Moscow wasn't an objective in real 1942, why would it be in alternate 1942? Not being sarcastic, serious question.