The Americans start the battle of Berlin?

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David1819
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The Americans start the battle of Berlin?

#1

Post by David1819 » 06 Sep 2014, 18:28

What if

The US and British reach Berlin first at leased a month or so before the Russians could get there?

I would speculate

That the Germans would lay down their arms easier and not defend to the bitter end considering they did not have the reputation of the Red Army.

Would Hitler still commit suicide or would he be under the delusion of negotiating? Or maybe Hitler's entire authority would collapse and the Wermarcht arrest everyone in the Bunker and hand them all in?

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Re: The Americans start the battle of Berlin?

#2

Post by Lieutenant S. Chuikov » 06 Sep 2014, 20:39

They would probably surrender. It's not a question of reputation so much as what the Nazis convinced the Germans would happen.

Hitler probably would have still committed suicide, or maybe tried to escape.
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Carl Schwamberger
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Re: The Americans start the battle of Berlin?

#3

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 07 Sep 2014, 03:31

Yes the German soldiers are more likely to surrender, in most cases. There were still examples of fanatical resistance against the US and British armies. For a few days at least the SS and some others will attempt bitter resistance.

There are some significant variables in this, mostly deriving from how the west Allies come to reach Berlin ahead of the Red Army. Does the Pod reach back to decisions in January 1945? To June 1944, or as far back as 1942?

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wenty
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Re: The Americans start the battle of Berlin?

#4

Post by wenty » 07 Sep 2014, 03:34

There's numerous recorded instances of the remaining German military units trying to break away from the Russian attack zones and surrender, if to anybody, to the Americans. It was perceived - probably correctly - that they would receive better treatment from them.

I don't think that there would have been the same level of resistance in Berlin if it was the Americans, but I think that the ultimate fate of Hitler still would have been the same. He was cornered in Berlin.

Cheers,
Adam.

David1819
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Re: The Americans start the battle of Berlin?

#5

Post by David1819 » 07 Sep 2014, 18:23

wenty wrote: but I think that the ultimate fate of Hitler still would have been the same. He was cornered in Berlin.
Yes but there is a big difference between being cornered by the American's and cornered by Stalin's Red Army.
Hitler's suicide is understandable considering what Stalin would have had in store for him. In Hitler's mind staying at Berlin was probably him considering his legacy and holding his ground ect. Wouldent suicide to evade capture by the Americans make him
look a coward? Saddam Hussein done it why not Hitler? The worst that would happen is the hangman's noose

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Re: The Americans start the battle of Berlin?

#6

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 08 Sep 2014, 01:25

Interesting subject for a map exercise or war game. The PoD would need to be decided to establish the paremeters for the Allied and German forces. Anyone have the documents for 'Operation Eclipse' on their desk top?

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Re: The Americans start the battle of Berlin?

#7

Post by ChristopherPerrien » 08 Sep 2014, 03:47

David1819 wrote: Saddam Hussein done it why not Hitler? The worst that would happen is the hangman's noose
Perhaps you are not aware; Hanging has often been considered an extremely dis-honorable death and implies that the person was deserving of such a death. Which is why it is often the method of execution for traitors and especially heinous criminals in many countries and cultures.

Also committing suicide before execution/hanging (cheating the hangman's noose) to avoid such a dishonorable death, has often been considered as a means of the accused to make one final " *screw you, you have no power over me" statement to the people or powers intent on hanging/executing the person. Herman Goering was perhaps the ultimate example of this for the Nazis in WWII, though Hitler and Himmler and many lower ranking Nazis, did the same , but with far less flair or dramatics.

On similar lines.
To be shot by a firing squad rather than hanging or given the choice between the two, has at times been considered a method of rendering honor to persons(usually soldiers) who are to be executed.

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Re: The Americans start the battle of Berlin?

#8

Post by maltesefalcon » 08 Sep 2014, 05:16

Technically the Battle of Berlin was not started by the Russians. The first blow was the French Air Force in 1940

But practically speaking the RAF fought the Battle of Berlin for nearly five years before the first Russian shell landed.

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Markus Becker
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Re: The Americans start the battle of Berlin?

#9

Post by Markus Becker » 08 Sep 2014, 17:08

maltesefalcon,

mere air raids, not a ground attack. That's two very different pairs of shoes.


As far as a POD goes, how about Falaise? The gap get's closed with ground troops right away, very few German soldiers escape and thus the German garrison at Arnhem is no more than 'young boys and old men'. And the Allies have a foothold across the Rhine.

Or the Battle of the Bulge? Ike decides he can risk the ire of the Belgians, pulls out of Bastogne and fights a delaying action towards the Meuse. The Germans advance and then the plentyful allied reserves attack the base of the salient. 3rd Army from the south, 1st from the North.

edit: Falaise is IMO the more likely option. Shifting an army boundary had been done many times before. Abandoning liberated allied terrain and civillians was hardly SOP.

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Re: The Americans start the battle of Berlin?

#10

Post by maltesefalcon » 08 Sep 2014, 22:49

I was making a bit of a play on words here, to make a point.

The capture of Berlin was in no small part possible due to the sacrifices of the RAF beforehand.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_ ... ampaign%29

I don't think any of these men would have called it "a mere bombing campaign"

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wenty
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Re: The Americans start the battle of Berlin?

#11

Post by wenty » 09 Sep 2014, 03:44

David,

I think that much worse would have been in store for Hitler than just the simple trial and hanging that was given to, say, some of the defendants at Nuremberg - even by the Americans.

I've actually argued at length on these forums before about the possibility that Hitler may have escaped, and I still believe it is entirely possible. But in any case he was a very sick man by 1945, mentally and physically, and probably wouldn't have made it to trial. Which left him with only two recourses - escape or suicide.

Cheers,
Adam.

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Markus Becker
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Re: The Americans start the battle of Berlin?

#12

Post by Markus Becker » 09 Sep 2014, 15:07

The RAF's attempt to burn down Berlin was a failure, ended a year before the ground battle began and in any case destroyed buildings are still all right as defensive positions. In ohter words, I can not see how the RAF's bombing had any effect on the fall of Berlin in 1945.

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Baltasar
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Re: The Americans start the battle of Berlin?

#13

Post by Baltasar » 10 Sep 2014, 05:52

maltesefalcon wrote:The capture of Berlin was in no small part possible due to the sacrifices of the RAF beforehand.
"
Sacrifice as in bombing cities with would just not burn down as easily as others while there was neither sufficient AAA nor planes to put a defense?

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Kingfish
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Re: The Americans start the battle of Berlin?

#14

Post by Kingfish » 17 Sep 2014, 03:17

Markus Becker wrote: As far as a POD goes, how about Falaise? The gap get's closed with ground troops right away, very few German soldiers escape and thus the German garrison at Arnhem is no more than 'young boys and old men'. And the Allies have a foothold across the Rhine.

Or the Battle of the Bulge? Ike decides he can risk the ire of the Belgians, pulls out of Bastogne and fights a delaying action towards the Meuse. The Germans advance and then the plentyful allied reserves attack the base of the salient. 3rd Army from the south, 1st from the North.
If your first paragraph goes off as you describe I seriously doubt there would be a German offensive in the Ardennes. More than likely you would see it occur on the North German Plain against 21st AG and whatever the Germans could assemble.
The gods do not deduct from a man's allotted span the hours spent in fishing.
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Re: The Americans start the battle of Berlin?

#15

Post by AJFFM » 17 Sep 2014, 21:00

David1819 wrote:
wenty wrote: but I think that the ultimate fate of Hitler still would have been the same. He was cornered in Berlin.
Yes but there is a big difference between being cornered by the American's and cornered by Stalin's Red Army.
Hitler's suicide is understandable considering what Stalin would have had in store for him. In Hitler's mind staying at Berlin was probably him considering his legacy and holding his ground ect. Wouldent suicide to evade capture by the Americans make him
look a coward? Saddam Hussein done it why not Hitler? The worst that would happen is the hangman's noose
Suicide after defeat is not part of the Arab culture which is why Saddam, and virtually every defeated Arab/Arabized leader from Abdullah ibn Al-Zubair (7th century claimant to the thrown who at one time controlled 3/4ths of the Islamic world then who was crucified by the way) till now, they all surrender knowing they will be killed because death at the hand of the enemy is and has always been the ultimate honour regardless how it comes (Qaddafi was raped before he was murdered and still considered an honourable death because it came at the hands of his enemies).

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