Axis invasion of Continental USA

[phylo_roadking]

Believe Admiral Yamamoto told a rash junior Imperial Army officer whom talked of invading the US West Coast: "There will be a rifle behind every blade of grass..."

...which three types of mismatched ammunition in its owner's pockets

What about Oz? Closer to Kansas, and the place is dominated by crypto facists if the literature is to be believed.

...yeah, and their airmobile forces come with their own wings!!!

At least the main roads match their Ordnance Survey map colours...

[ChristopherPerrien]

OK , How about this. The Miracle at Dunkirk doesn't happen. The UK signs a peace with Germany, similar to Vichy France. With the added forces not needed for the BoB or "Sealion/Fortress Europe"", Germany defeats the USSR in 1941, Stalin is "replaced". USSR signs truce with the Axis powers. Hitler and Japan declare a trade blockade against the USA in 1941. THe Axis use all their submarines to hunt US warships and intercoastal US Commerce this causes war to be declared by US. Germany finds find out US is working on Atom Bomb. Germany and Japan have about 4 1/2 years to force America to stop building the "bomb", and/or expedite their own programs.

[pugsville]

The US did not need imports, attacking merchantmen no matte how successful isnt going to effect US industrial output. Once the Navy construction program starts delivering in 1943 US dominance at sea is hard to avoid. German/Italy lack any sort of credible fleet, have no experience in carrier operations.

[maltesefalcon]

The Fortress Europe explanation is moot. The real need for it was not felt until after the Barbarrossa campaign had failed. The construction of the Atlantic wall began in the second half of 1942.
Even if Britain surrendered, some troops would be needed to be left behind in the west to pacify and administer the newly conqured territory.
As it was 80% of available forces plus help from Axis allies moved east for the Barbarrossa campaign.

[OpanaPointer]

I'm surprised no one has suggested Germany form an alliance with Sauron and invade the U.S. via middle Earth

What about Oz? Closer to Kansas, and the place is dominated by crypto facists if the literature is to be believed.

Kansas is in the middle of the US steppe. They would have lost troops from shear boredom.

[ChristopherPerrien]

The Fortress Europe explanation is moot. The real need for it was not felt until after the Barbarrossa campaign had failed. The construction of the Atlantic wall began in the second half of 1942.
Even if Britain surrendered, some troops would be needed to be left behind in the west to pacify and administer the newly conqured territory.
As it was 80% of available forces plus help from Axis allies moved east for the Barbarrossa campaign.

Ghee, I was just laying a reasonable groundwork for how and why the Axis might wind up in a position and have a reason for "Invading the USA".

As to your post, it only reminds me that the forces used in the Greek and Crete campaigns could have been use in Barbarossa. Perhaps the German Fallschirmjäger Corps could have dropped on Moscow. All beside the point.

I have at least gotten the Germans and the Japanese and the Italians to point where they can conduct unhindered operations against the USA(i.e. invade) and I guess China , and have reason to .

Do I think it matters ? , NO, you could add the naval forces of the UK and the Vichy french Fleet ,and perhaps a revamped Russian "Vaslov Army" to the Axis side, and the USA is still going to kick their butts. See if they can make it across our TWO PONDS.
Guess we'll have to occupy Canada and Mexico as a matter of prudence.

[maltesefalcon]

Correct me if I am wrong...
I think the Germans sent troops to Greece to assist Italy in operations vs the Greek army for the most part.
The British were too little too late in this campaign.
So the Germans would still need to go there in any case.
I would agree the Crete campaign would not have resulted however. So Students men could be used elsewhere.

[RichTO90]

As to your post, it only reminds me that the forces used in the Greek and Crete campaigns could have been use in Barbarossa.

They were so used. So what's your point?

[flakbait]

Naval supremacy completely aside (NOT that it would not matter) as with both Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany think you are completely underestimating the US industrial production potential. By even late 1942 while the US production was just starting into 3rd gear the soon coming shift to 4th and by early 1944 going into "overdrive" was already well underway. Look at Combined Fleet.com> Enter> and scroll down to "Economic Realities of the Pacific War. KEEP in mind that the Pacific War was the "back water" compared to the effort against Nazi Germany. Compare just about ANY category of production and the Axis were simply firguratively and often LITERALLY buried under a mountain of US production of everything. Short of a weak willed US government simply surrendering to them. the Axis for all their initial successes simply could not hope to WIN, period ! Making the fight "easier" by bringing the war to America is NOT going to "help" the Axis; quite the opposite...less distance for American forces to travel before just piling on to any invaders. PLUS the "home field" advantage. Again, the Axis forces doesn`t stand a chance even against JUST the then registered members of the National Rifle Association, let alone the US military. "...a rifle behind every blade of grass..."

[ChristopherPerrien]

More or less , what I think too. US output was more than the rest of the world combined in most sectors.

However there is issue that Germany could build a TON of U-boats by 43-44, especially if their industries were unmolested by heavy bombing. The same could be said for the rest of their armaments production , plus having no fuel shortage.

Not sure how the US could handle 200 submarines constant (out of say 600) cruising the East Coast.

[gurn]

Guess we'll have to occupy Canada and Mexico as a matter of prudence.


Both Canada, and Mexico object. Britain objects, along with the rest of the Commonwealth, and Hitler lets what is left of British forces join the fight for Canada. The continent of South America decides to fight US aggression into Mexico and forms a "coalition of the willing". This forces starts moving north to meet the US invasion.
America is now fighting a war on all four sides. Japan to the North West, Australia to the southwest, Brit/Canada to the North, South American Army Group to the South and Germany harassing the East coat.

[ChristopherPerrien]

Nah , there ain't much in Canada , and it only had a pop of about 10-11mil, and the French of Canda have about as much of a chance fighting the USA as Vichy France.

Mexico(middle America) was basically a US plantation(still is) and South America going to go over the USA also as Allies with Brazil leading the way. In terms of Trade and needed goods - Middle and South America have no option but to be US allies.

Okay, I done, unless the original topic poster or someone want to take this somewhere , I don't feel like invading the USA or figthing the world in a forum.
this is more a war-game like Hearts of Iron, and I am not going to look for figures.

Regards,
Chris

[phylo_roadking]

The Fortress Europe explanation is moot. The real need for it was not felt until after the Barbarrossa campaign had failed. The construction of the Atlantic wall began in the second half of 1942.

Maltesefalcon, don't necessarily equate Festung Europa directly with the Atlantic Wall. The Atlantic Wall was the anti-invasion section, yes....but Fortress Europe had been created in Hitler's mind before that with the British raids on Vaagso and the Lofoten islands When he caught his bad case of "island sickness"...

[maltesefalcon]

The Fortress Europe explanation is moot. The real need for it was not felt until after the Barbarrossa campaign had failed. The construction of the Atlantic wall began in the second half of 1942.

Maltesefalcon, don't necessarily equate Festung Europa directly with the Atlantic Wall. The Atlantic Wall was the anti-invasion section, yes....but Fortress Europe had been created in Hitler's mind before that with the British raids on Vaagso and the Lofoten islands When he caught his bad case of "island sickness"...

Agreed, but Hitler's concept was just that. There was little actual construction done on the reality until late 1942. The project was still partially unfinished as late as D-Day. This work would have been done primarily by forced labour civilians. So relatively few troops would have been freed up to go East in June 1941 in any case. I was focussing on the troop allocations in my prior thought processes.

In fairness, Christopher Perrien's new timeline is such a radical change from the original point of departure, that it should really have been in a new thread.

[Carl Schwamberger]

I'm surprised no one has suggested Germany form an alliance with Sauron and invade the U.S. via middle Earth

What about Oz? Closer to Kansas, and the place is dominated by crypto facists if the literature is to be believed.

Kansas is in the middle of the US steppe. They would have lost troops from shear boredom.

Hey! The Great Plains are... GREAT! I know I grew up there. Whats not to like about slow muddy rivers, endless grain fields, grass wastelands, sand hills, sloughs, little towns with lots of early 20th Century buildings preserved, and very affordable real estate prices? Maybe the invaders will arrive in tornado season, now there is some excitement with the ancient Oubache lottery of the plains tribes . Or perhaps they will appreciate a driving blizzard & recall similar days on the Russian steppe? Then there are the Mississippi floods, dust storms.... My childhood was certainly not boring. How I remember the excitement of sprinting for the basement as hail fell from a poisonous green sky, or praying the power was restored before hypothermia took hold, or multiple lighting strikes on the landscape around your car as you lie flat in a ditch.