What would it take to make a Secure Atlantic Wall?

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T. A. Gardner
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Re: What would it take to make a Secure Atlantic Wall?

#31

Post by T. A. Gardner » 01 Mar 2015, 19:02

JAG13 wrote:
Carl Schwamberger wrote:maybe instead of these beam guided weapons we might consider a piloted delivery system. A one shot aircraft with a cheap engine like the V1 or the Natter, basic flight controls, a 500 kg bomb, and piloted by fanatical young SS volunteers. Call it the Kirschblüte?
You mean something like this?

Image

Image

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fieseler_F ... eichenberg
Well, that would have made more sense than this:

Image

The Neger human torpedo suffered 100% casualties at Normandy for zero successes. Not a good ratio...

Maybe something like an "improved" V-1 carrying a pattern running torpedo and piloted. The pilot just has to get out to he can launch then flies somewhere to abandon the V-1 "parachuting to safety..." maybe.

The Japanese Oka flying bomb was pretty much unstoppable once launched. It was only pilot inexperience and poor tactics on their part that made them less effective in hitting a ship. The Japanese pilots flew at a higher altitude than sea skimming and dove on their target. This produced a number of near misses rather than hits. Sea skimming and trying to hit the ship head on would have worked better.

Bottom line is still, if you can't sink the fleet off shore you lose the battle.

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Re: What would it take to make a Secure Atlantic Wall?

#32

Post by thaddeus_c » 02 Mar 2015, 07:59

Carl Schwamberger wrote:maybe instead of these beam guided weapons we might consider a piloted delivery system. A one shot aircraft with a cheap engine like the V1 or the Natter, basic flight controls, a 500 kg bomb, and piloted by fanatical young SS volunteers. Call it the Kirschblüte?
wooden glider that (at least on some versions) towed a bomb on a cable behind. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blohm_%26_Voss_BV_40


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Re: What would it take to make a Secure Atlantic Wall?

#33

Post by BDV » 02 Mar 2015, 17:38

Focusing on improving the airborne delivery of V1s rather than working on the expensive V2, and using this weapons against invasion beaches rather than as terror-weapons would have paid much larger dividends, was posited on these Forums.

P.S.

La Wiki reports modest (but existant) results for the Negers. What gives?
Nobody expects the Fallschirm! Our chief weapon is surprise; surprise and fear; fear and surprise. Our 2 weapons are fear and surprise; and ruthless efficiency. Our *3* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency; and almost fanatical devotion

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Re: What would it take to make a Secure Atlantic Wall?

#34

Post by JAG13 » 02 Mar 2015, 18:36

T. A. Gardner wrote: Well, that would have made more sense than this:

Image

The Neger human torpedo suffered 100% casualties at Normandy for zero successes. Not a good ratio...

Maybe something like an "improved" V-1 carrying a pattern running torpedo and piloted. The pilot just has to get out to he can launch then flies somewhere to abandon the V-1 "parachuting to safety..." maybe.

The Japanese Oka flying bomb was pretty much unstoppable once launched. It was only pilot inexperience and poor tactics on their part that made them less effective in hitting a ship. The Japanese pilots flew at a higher altitude than sea skimming and dove on their target. This produced a number of near misses rather than hits. Sea skimming and trying to hit the ship head on would have worked better.

Bottom line is still, if you can't sink the fleet off shore you lose the battle.
It would have certainly have been effective if used as you describe, on the other hand, the Neger at least gave the driver a chance, that pulse jet on the V-1 and the lack of ejection seat made the outcome almost a given.

Yeah, you cant win a battle if the other side can shell you at will with heavy cannon.

Everytime I hear about the Ohka I remember the pilot that survived 3 Ohka missions... and the war.

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Re: What would it take to make a Secure Atlantic Wall?

#35

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 03 Mar 2015, 03:54

Carl Schwamberger wrote:maybe instead of these beam guided weapons we might consider a piloted delivery system. A one shot aircraft with a cheap engine like the V1 or the Natter, basic flight controls, a 500 kg bomb, and piloted by fanatical young SS volunteers. Call it the Kirschblüte?
Damm. Looks like no one caught my little jest. Maybe the translation was poor?
JAG13 wrote:You mean something like this?

Image

Image

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fieseler_F ... eichenberg
Well, that would have made more sense than this:

Image

The Neger human torpedo suffered 100% casualties at Normandy for zero successes. Not a good ratio...

Maybe something like an "improved" V-1 carrying a pattern running torpedo and piloted. The pilot just has to get out to he can launch then flies somewhere to abandon the V-1 "parachuting to safety..." maybe.

The Japanese Oka flying bomb was pretty much unstoppable once launched. It was only pilot inexperience and poor tactics on their part that made them less effective in hitting a ship. The Japanese pilots flew at a higher altitude than sea skimming and dove on their target. This produced a number of near misses rather than hits. Sea skimming and trying to hit the ship head on would have worked better.[/quote]

I'm sure the Germans would have done better.
Bottom line is still, if you can't sink the fleet off shore you lose the battle.
Sea mines did not work. Passages were swept in hours, without warning the Germans.

Since were are talking high tech here, how about command released acoustic homing torpedos in magazines on the sea bottom. When the enemy fleet is identified the torpedos are released & with positive bouyancy come to the surface. The motors are activated when they acquire a target signal. 100 of these individually released every ten minutes from four magazines in the middle of the invasion fleet would cause some excitement.

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Re: What would it take to make a Secure Atlantic Wall?

#36

Post by Erwinn » 03 Mar 2015, 14:45

With Russia out of the war, you don't think Allies even dare to land on Normandy do you?

Even with the 1/3 men and equipment from Eastern Front would easily drive away landings from beaches.

Not to mention a powerful, refitted Luftwaffe presence.

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Re: What would it take to make a Secure Atlantic Wall?

#37

Post by JAG13 » 03 Mar 2015, 15:25

Carl Schwamberger wrote:
Damm. Looks like no one caught my little jest. Maybe the translation was poor?

Should have known... :D
Sea mines did not work. Passages were swept in hours, without warning the Germans.

Since were are talking high tech here, how about command released acoustic homing torpedos in magazines on the sea bottom. When the enemy fleet is identified the torpedos are released & with positive bouyancy come to the surface. The motors are activated when they acquire a target signal. 100 of these individually released every ten minutes from four magazines in the middle of the invasion fleet would cause some excitement.
Captor mines? Sounds great.

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Re: What would it take to make a Secure Atlantic Wall?

#38

Post by T. A. Gardner » 03 Mar 2015, 19:16

One thing the Germans might have done, but didn't do due to a combination of lack of experience in the field and lack of materials to make some of the components, would have been to place off shore command detonated mines. The US and Japan both made extensive use of these in coast defense, particularly harbor and bay defense. The technology was well established and known.

The big block for Germany would have been manufacturing the underwater cabling for these. Given the strain on their electronics industry they probably didn't have the capacity to make the miles and miles of cable necessary, among other components.

But, a string of very large and powerful off shore command detonated mines could have made a serious disruption to a landing by either detonating the among the landing craft as they approached, or if far enough out detonating them when supporting ships passed over the field. Being bottom mines and command operated they would be nearly impossible to sweep using then conventional methods.

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Re: What would it take to make a Secure Atlantic Wall?

#39

Post by glenn239 » 03 Mar 2015, 19:21

The pilot just has to get out to he can launch then flies somewhere to abandon the V-1 "parachuting to safety..." maybe.
Flip the pulse jet to below the fuselage, (should be possible for an air launched version, not so sure about a ground launch) and install an ejection seat.
Sea mines did not work. Passages were swept in hours, without warning the Germans.
Use rocket artillery (nerbelwerfer) to drop new sea mines in opened corridors.

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Re: What would it take to make a Secure Atlantic Wall?

#40

Post by Sheldrake » 03 Mar 2015, 22:18

Carl Schwamberger wrote:
Sea mines did not work. Passages were swept in hours, without warning the Germans.

Since were are talking high tech here, how about command released acoustic homing torpedos in magazines on the sea bottom. When the enemy fleet is identified the torpedos are released & with positive bouyancy come to the surface. The motors are activated when they acquire a target signal. 100 of these individually released every ten minutes from four magazines in the middle of the invasion fleet would cause some excitement.
Sea mines were one of the nasty surprises for the allies. The Germans started dropping acoustic mines from the air rather than face the air defences over the D Dya beachhead. These acoustic mines were activated by the first ship to pass over the mine and detonated by the second. They could br dropped at blow level from outside the range of AA defences.

The key to detecting the mines was allied advanced technology. The Gun Laying radars used by the British Air defence artillery were sufficiently sensitive to detect the splash made by the mine hitting the water, thus enabling the minesweepers to fpocus on very small patches of sea.

The Germans had some clever ideas, but the allies had some big advantages in the technology which could be deployed en mass, e.g. small radars in various forms.

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Re: What would it take to make a Secure Atlantic Wall?

#41

Post by T. A. Gardner » 03 Mar 2015, 22:21

glenn239 wrote: Flip the pulse jet to below the fuselage, (should be possible for an air launched version, not so sure about a ground launch) and install an ejection seat.
Easier would be to just add a hatch on the bottom of the V-1 and a downward firing ejector seat, or make it large enough that when opened the pilot can just fall out of the craft.
Use rocket artillery (nerbelwerfer) to drop new sea mines in opened corridors.
That would be difficult as sea mines are quite large in the WW 2 period.

Now, if the Germans had thought up the one the US came up with in Vietnam... That is take a 250 kg bomb, add a flotation box instead of the tail, and make the fuzing watertight and such that it goes off in proximity (magnetic maybe, or feeler wires) it could be a nasty surprise as those could be delivered in large numbers by a bunch of different systems.

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Re: What would it take to make a Secure Atlantic Wall?

#42

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 04 Mar 2015, 06:01

Erwinn wrote:With Russia out of the war, you don't think Allies even dare to land on Normandy do you?

Even with the 1/3 men and equipment from Eastern Front would easily drive away landings from beaches.

Not to mention a powerful, refitted Luftwaffe presence.
Re: Luftwaffe. In 1944 the operational flying strength averaged a bit over 5,000 aircraft in the first half of the year. About half that was in the east &the remainder split between Germany & western europe and the Mediterranean. Post invasion during June & early july the German air strength in France increased to around 1,300 operational aircraft each day. Assuming the aircraft from the east are not scattered from Norway to Greece, but concentrated to oppose this invasion. That boosts the hypothetical strength to around 3,800 - 4,000. At the start of June the Allies had around 12,000 operational combat aircraft in the UK, so the defense is still out numbered 3-1. A lack of a eastern front is not liekly to save the Germans much in losses. In 1943 between 60 & 70 % of the Luftwaffe losses were in the west. that rose slightly in the first half of 1944. What ever aircraft 7 pilots are move west would be battling in a higher loss campaign & thus attritioned away faster.
Erwinn wrote:With Russia out of the war, you don't think Allies even dare to land on Normandy do you? ...
Maybe not. They certainly would use different techniques.

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Re: What would it take to make a Secure Atlantic Wall?

#43

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 04 Mar 2015, 06:01

Carl Schwamberger wrote:
Erwinn wrote:With Russia out of the war, you don't think Allies even dare to land on Normandy do you?

Even with the 1/3 men and equipment from Eastern Front would easily drive away landings from beaches.

Not to mention a powerful, refitted Luftwaffe presence.
Re: Luftwaffe. In 1944 the operational flying strength averaged a bit over 5,000 aircraft in the first half of the year. About half that was in the east &the remainder split between Germany & western europe and the Mediterranean. Post invasion during June & early july the German air strength in France increased to around 1,300 operational aircraft each day. Assuming the aircraft from the east are not scattered from Norway to Greece, but concentrated to oppose this invasion. That boosts the hypothetical strength to around 3,800 - 4,000. At the start of June the Allies had around 12,000 operational combat aircraft in the UK, so the defense is still out numbered 3-1. A lack of a eastern front is not liekly to save the Germans much in losses. In 1943 between 60 & 70 % of the Luftwaffe losses were in the west. that rose slightly in the first half of 1944. What ever aircraft & pilots are move west would be battling in a higher loss campaign & thus attritioned away faster.
Erwinn wrote:With Russia out of the war, you don't think Allies even dare to land on Normandy do you? ...
Maybe not. They certainly would use different techniques.

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Re: What would it take to make a Secure Atlantic Wall?

#44

Post by glenn239 » 04 Mar 2015, 19:21

That would be difficult as sea mines are quite large in the WW 2 period.
Not the ones that are just big enough to sink a landing craft. Those might be small enough that a six-tube nerbelwerfer might be able to deploy 24 or even 50 sea mines into the landing approaches.

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Re: What would it take to make a Secure Atlantic Wall?

#45

Post by T. A. Gardner » 04 Mar 2015, 19:37

glenn239 wrote:
That would be difficult as sea mines are quite large in the WW 2 period.
Not the ones that are just big enough to sink a landing craft. Those might be small enough that a six-tube nerbelwerfer might be able to deploy 24 or even 50 sea mines into the landing approaches.
The problem becomes one of range. The 15cm NW has a max of about 7 km. That would put the launchers very close to the beach if you want to get the rockets off shore any distance. Then you'd be firing at landing craft on their way to the beach. It would probably be better to just fire HE with a graze fuze to hope for a hit or fragment damage.

Of course, given the smoke trails your launchers are not likely to survive long from the return NGFS.

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