What if Marders invented for Barbarossa?

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stg 44
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What if Marders invented for Barbarossa?

#1

Post by stg 44 » 03 Apr 2015, 20:56

Historically the Su-76 was a Soviet multipurpose design similar to the German Marder use for AT and fire support work for infantry. During the invasion of France the Panzerjager I was used in a similar role, but proved to be relatively weak against the French and British heavy tanks they encountered; what if they decided to upgun their SP TD units into something like the Marder that would have a role similar to the Soviet Su-76?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marder_III
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SU-76

Instead of developing a high velocity 75mm gun that the Pz IV later used, what if they used the dual purpose 75mm L40 developed in 1934 for recon units?
http://www.achtungpanzer.com/75cm-selbs ... e-l408.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pz.Sfl._II
http://forum.valka.cz/files/7_146.jpg

So the Marders would use this gun both for AT and fire support and replace the Panzerjager I that was historically used during Barbarossa to very poor effect? They would be cheap and easy to make, especially compared to the Pz II and 38t and can also use the Lorraine Schlepper chassis:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marder_I
http://www.achtungpanzer.com/marder-marten-series.htm

It would give the Germans an AT ability to engage and destroy the Soviet medium and heavy tanks they would encounter, while also having HE ability to support their tanks and infantry at greater distances; the Panzerjager I fell victim to the long range Soviet 76mm AT guns, who could engage the PzJgr I at much greater distances than it could respond to, causing them to be lost in significant numbers:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzerj%C3 ... ssessments
Anti-tank Battalion 521 July 1941
"The effective range of the 4.7 cm Pak(t) is 1,000 to 1,200 metres (1,100 to 1,300 yd) with a maximum range of 1,500 metres (1,600 yd). When attacking an enemy position equipped with anti-tank guns and artillery, as occurred near Mogilev and Rogachev, because of its high superstructure that presents a good target for artillery and anti-tank guns, the Panzerjäger is destroyed before it can get into action."
"When large shells explode close-by, fragments penetrate the thin armor, as occurred near Rogachev. Russian 4.5 cm (1.8 in) anti-tank guns already penetrate at 1,200 metres (1,300 yd) range. The 1. Kompanie lost 5 out of the 10 vehicles (Kampffahrzeuge) in such actions, of which only two could be repaired."[7]
Anti-tank Battalion 605 July 1942
"The good accuracy of this weapon was especially commented on. Usually a hit is obtained with the first shot at ranges up to 1,000 metres (1,100 yd). Penetration ability is too low for the necessary combat ranges in the desert. The chassis is too weak. The engine is overtaxed. Springs in the suspension are continuously breaking."
"In one case, three Mk II (Matilda II infantry tanks) were penetrated at a range of 400 metres (440 yd) by 4.7 cm tungsten-core armor-piercing shell (Pz.Gr. 40). It usually penetrates 60 millimetres (2.4 in) of armor. Therefore, a small percentage of these rounds are desired. The 4.7 cm armor-piercing shell (Pz.Gr. 36(t)) will not penetrate a Mk.II at 600 to 800 metres (660 to 870 yd). But the crew will abandon the tank because fragments spall off the armor on the inside."[6]
The Marders still had similar issues, but would be much more effective a longer ranges than the PzJgr I's and be able to penetrate enemy tanks much more easily, plus they would give the Pz II and 38t chassis better utility as they were now obsolete.

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Re: What if Marders invented for Barbarossa?

#2

Post by Jeff Leach » 03 Apr 2015, 21:20

stg 44 wrote: So the Marders would use this gun both for AT and fire support and replace the Panzerjager I that was historically used during Barbarossa to very poor effect?
Anti-tank Battalion 521 July 1941
"The effective range of the 4.7 cm Pak(t) is 1,000 to 1,200 metres (1,100 to 1,300 yd) with a maximum range of 1,500 metres (1,600 yd). When attacking an enemy position equipped with anti-tank guns and artillery, as occurred near Mogilev and Rogachev, because of its high superstructure that presents a good target for artillery and anti-tank guns, the Panzerjäger is destroyed before it can get into action."
"When large shells explode close-by, fragments penetrate the thin armor, as occurred near Rogachev. Russian 4.5 cm (1.8 in) anti-tank guns already penetrate at 1,200 metres (1,300 yd) range. The 1. Kompanie lost 5 out of the 10 vehicles (Kampffahrzeuge) in such actions, of which only two could be repaired."[7]
Read the following 'Activity Report' on Pz.Jg.Abt.(Sfl.) 670 while subordinate to the 16.Inf.Div.(mot). It appears that the PzJäg I performed fairly well during at least the early stages of Barbarossa.

10.07.41
3./Pz.Jg.Abt.(Sft.) 670 was instructed to cooperate with the I./Inf.Rgt.156(mot) for its attack from Podolance towards Wolosowka. The company was placed with the leading troops.

1./Pz.Jg.Abt.(Sfl.) 670 was subordinated to the II./Inf.Rgt.156(mot) to help forward its attack via Babuszki towards Bezymowka. After reaching the attack objective the company less one platoon was given the mission of seizing Januszpol. At the south exit of Wolica the company ran into a heavy Soviet tank (T34). Coming under fire from four tank destroyers (JägPz I) it turned around and headed back towards Januszpol.
Together with the lead company of II./Inf.Rgt.156(mot), the tank destroyer company occupied the northern part of Januszpol after hard fighting. A further advance into the town ran into three Soviet heavy tanks. A fire fight developed at ranges of 200 – 300 meters. The Soviet tanks, which had been hit numerous times, were forced to withdraw. Thhe company then pushed forward into the middle of town and took up a hedgehog formation. Another Soviet heavy tank showed up but it disappeared as soon as it came under fire. With part of the II./Inf.Rgt.156(mot) they advanced further into the town but with the falling of darkness the action had to be broken off.

11.07.41

1./Pz.Jg.Abt.(Sfl.) 670 was still subordinate to the III./Inf.Rgt.156(mot) accompanying the infantry will they cleared the area around Januszpol. During the action the company was surprised by five tanks all of which were destroyed. After that the company was first attached to I./Inf.Div.156(mot), then II./ and finally III./. The company receive an order at 21:00 to be available to Kradschutz.Btl.165, which had reached Medwedycha about 5 kilometers north of Januszpol.

12.07.41

1./Pz.Jg.Abt.(Sfl.) 670 was subordinated to the Kradschtz.Btl.165 and was to accompany the attack of the battalion, which had the mission of establishing a bridgehead at Rajgorodok. The company advanced, clearing the pockets of enemy along the way. In reaching the center of Rajgorok they were surprised to find five enemy tanks there. These were quickly engaged and destroyed. While forming the bridgehead the motorcyclists were attacked from the east by enemy tanks at 16:45. The company which had been in ready positions in Rajgorodok, quickly destroyed six enemy tanks in a counter attack.

13.07.41

1./Pz.Jg.Abt.(Sfl.) 670, which was subordinate to Kradschtz.Btl.165, had the mission of holding the bridgehead that had been formed at Rajgorodok. The Soviets attacked from the northeast at 11:30 with ten tanks. The two lead tanks were knocked out and the rest withdrew to the southeast. The company remained in its firing positions.

14.07.41

1./Pz.Jg.Abt.(Sfl.) 670, subordinate to Kradschtz.Btl.165, which was relieved by Inf.Rgt.156(mot) during the day. The company was then attached to the regiment and stationed at Rajgorok.

15.07.41

1./Pz.Jg.Abt.(Sfl.) 670 was subordinated to the I./Inf.Rgt.156 (mot) and accompanied the battalion’s attack towards Fridrowo. The company supported the attack using direct-fire HE.

17.07.41

For Inf.Rgt.156’s attack fron Sokolez via Shurbinzy towards Height 295 the Abteilung commander suggested that the 3./Pz.Jg.Abt.(Sfl.) 670 cooperate with the regiment because Soviet tanks had been reported in the area. Together with I./Inf.Rgt.156 they entered Shurbinzy in heavy fighting in the town they destroyed three Soviet heavy tanks.

18.07.41

3./Pz.Jg.Abt.(Sfl.) 670 was subordinated to I./Inf.Rgt.156 (mot). It was located in ready-station positions just south of Shurbinzy. The company managed to spot two guns that were shelling the town and destroyed them with HE fire.

At 18:00 the company was ordered by Inf.Rgt.156, together with a motorcycle company, to relieve the 1./ and 7./Inf.Rgt.156 that were encircled by the Soviet in Pruschinka. The attack was launched under very heavy artillery fire. When the tank destroyers had approached to within 150 meters of the bridge at Pruschinka they can under antitank fire. Both antitank guns were destroyed without any losses. The trapped companies fought there way out of encirclement. The dead and the wounded was carried away.

19.07.41

Inf.Rgt. 156 positioned the 3./Pz.Jg.Abt.(Sfl.) 670 around the crossroads 1 kilometer northeast of Point 295, in order to intercept any further Soviet attacks.

20.07.41

Inf.Rgt. 156 stationed 3./Pz.Jg.Abt.(Sfl.) 670 in the southern part Bialolowka. At 18:00 the company returned to the battalion.

21.07.41

The 16.Inf.Div.(mot) orders the whole battalion to Borschtschagowka and to station itself there as a reaction force.

At 17:00 the Abteilung is subordinated to Kradschtz.Batl.165 and move to Dolgalewka and be ready there.

22.07.41

Pz.Jag.Abt.(Sfl.) 670, without the 2nd company, was still available to 16.Inf.Div. (mot). It was stationed a Dolgalewka.

2./Pz.Jag.Abt.(Sfl.) 670 was subordinate to Kradschtz.Batl.165 and reached Wyssokoje about 19:00. While scouting firing positions east of Stadniza, five enemy tanks and a small vehicle column discovered. The company quickly moved to firing positions but the enemy withdrew from Stadniza after the first shots were fired.

1./Pz.Jag.Abt.(Sfl.) 670 reached Bugajewka at 12:00 and was place at the disposal of III./Inf.Rgt. 156. A direct hit by artillery fire caused five casualties. The company placed itself in ready positions in a small woods 1 kilometer south Gubajewka

23.07.41

Pz.Jäg.Abt.(Sfl.) 670, without the second company, was to follow in the attack sector of Inf.Rgt.179, which it had been subordinate to. It mission was to intervene in case enemy tanks appeared.

The Abteilung’s 3rd company was to cooperated the I.Batl., which was on the right, and had been under fire for some time from six enemy tanks to the south of Sitkowze. Five of the enemy tanks were destroyed after a at times hard fight.

1./Pz.Jäg.Abt.(Sfl.) 670 was assembled in a hollow about 2 kilometers southwest of Sitkowze by the Abteilung commander. During the attack the I./ and II./Inf.Rgt.179 had become separated and the company had been order to find a place where it could intervene in case the enemy tried to exploit the gap.

2./Pz.Jäg.Abt.(Sfl.) 670 together with Kradschtz.Batl.165 were deployed on the heigths to the west of Wyssokoje around Stadniza. They harassed the retreating enemy troops to the north and to the south of their positions and managed to destroy a heavy gun and two truck loaded with soldiers.

The company together with Kradschtz.Batl.165 advanced to Schuljaki, where the enemy was trying to breakthrough. A pluton escorted a reconnaissance troop to Chmelewka and clear the village of the enemy.

24.07.41

Around 02:30 the Soviets launched a strong attack near the I./Inf.Rgt.179, which was deployed south of Sitkowze. The main thrust of the attack was directed at the left flank of the battalion and the large gap between the I./ and II./Inf.Rgt.179. Although acting independently the 1./ and 3./Pz.Jäg.Abt.(Sfl.) 670 reacted as one. The left flank of I./Inf.Rgt.179 was already being forced back and the Soviets were threatening to flank it. After a two-hour hard fight, using HE shells, grenades, M.P. and M.G. fire the attack was repulsed by 1./ and 3./Pz.Jäg.Abt.(Sfl.) 670 and I./Inf.Rgt.179 with heavy loses. The situation was cleared up. The counterattack could only be carried out so successfully because 1./Pz.Jäg.Abt.(Sfl.) 670 had been in a favourable position.

25.07.41

After the II./Inf.Rgt.156 relieved I./Schtz.Rgt.79 (16 Pz.Div.); one platoon of 2./Pz.Jäg.Abt.(Sfl.) 670, which was in positions southwest of Lukaschewka, was subordinate to the battalion. One platoon remained subordinate to the M.T.W. company. (?) The Soviets launched an attack around 08:30, which force 7./Inf.Rgt.156 to pull back, and the Soviets penetrated into Lukaschewka from the southwest. The panzerjäger platoon stationed southwest of Lukaschewka made a determined counterattack and forced the Soviets back out of the town. III./Inf.Rgt.156 arrived in the meantime and with support of the panzerjäger platoon, the attack was beaten off and the old positions reoccupied.

30.07.41

For the planed breakthrough the Abteilung reinforced Inf.Rgt.156, moving to a position 3 kilometers east-northeast of the train station at Maschurow. The Abteilung marched behind I./Inf.Rgt.156 for the most part. While the leading elements of the Abteilung (the march order was 3rd Company, Battalion Staff, 2nd Company) were about 1 kilometer north of Kamenetschje, resting before completing the rest of the march. An enemy attack was suddenly launched from a wooded tract about 3 kilometers to the south of Kamenetschje with artillery support from the direction of Selenjkoff and south of the march route. The lead element of the attack had already reach to within 500 meters of the road, when the Abteilung commander gave order to the 2nd and 3rd Companies. The commander had decieded on a flank attack. The 2nd Company to the west of the march route on the right flank and the 3rd Company to the north of them. The leading elements of the enemy attack were cut off and had to surrender. The prisoners were taken by the troops of the march column to the east of Selenjkoff. The attack continued in a general northwest direction and after hard fighting the heights about 3 kilometers to the northwest of Kamenetschje were occupied. These were held against repeated enemy attacks from the west and northwest, even though no infantry were deployed in the area, and one platoon, on orders from the commander of Inf.Rgt.156, was sent to the south of Kamenetschje to support I./Inf.Rgt.156. One panzerjäger was a total loss after receiving a direct hit by artillery. During the evening was Abteilung was relieved by II./Inf.Rgt.60 and it withdrew to Pawlowka and placed in the division’s reserve.

31.07.41

In ready stations at Pawlowka as part of the division’s reserve.

01.08.41

The 2nd and 3rd Companies were in Pawlowka as part of the division’s reserve. On orders from the division the 2nd Company repositioned itself to near the north exit of Swertlikowo, ready to intervene in case a strong enemy attack developed. The company chief was to take orders from III./Inf.Rgt.60. While the company was reaching Swertlikowo at 09:00, the enemy attacked the I./Inf.Rgt.156, which was position on the southwest edge of the town. The infantry was prepared to withdraw and abandon Swertlikowo. Quickly judging the situation, the the III./Inf.Rgt.60 would be cut off if I./Inf.Rgt.156 were to withdraw from the town, the company chief ordered a daring counterattack to throw out the enemy that had already penetrated the town. After the attack the company positioned itself near the southern exit to Swertlikowo covering the road leading to Nowo-Archangelsk. During the evening the Inf.Rgt.156 ordered the company to withdraw to Dubowenka.

02.08.41

Pz.Jg.Abt.(Sfl.) 670 in ready stations at Pawlowka as part of the division’s reserve. 2./Pz.Jg.Abt.(Sfl.) 670, on orders from Inf.Rgt.156, together with 1./S.S.Rgt. Westland reached the north edge of Swertlikowo. Just as the companies arrived the Soviets launched a strong attack with its focus on I/.Inf.Rgt.156. A large part of the infantry is already in quick retreat and the enemy has broken through the front line and has pushed forwards to parts of the north edge of town. Making a quick decision the commanders of 2./Pz.Jg.Abt.(Sfl.) 670 and 1./S.S.Rgt. Westland formed to Kampfgruppen each consisting of a platoon of panzerjäger and a platoon of infantry. In hard house-to-house combat, where at times parts of 2./Pz.Jg.Abt.(Sfl.) 670 were completely surrounded, both companies cleared out the town. The enemy suffered heavy losses and Swertlikowo was again firmly occupied.

When the rest of the Abteilung recieved a radio message that part of the 2nd Company was surrounded, it obtained permission from the 16.Inf.Div.(mot) to move to the area north of Swertlikowo to assist the surrounded elements of the 2nd Company. In the meantime the 2nd Company along with the S.S. had reached the south edge of the town.

The 3rd Company as soon as it reached Swertlikowo started clearing the west part of town with HE shells and positioned itself there in ready positions. At about 09:15 the Soviets launched another strong attack on Swertlikowo from the woods southeast of Kamenetschje and south of there. The 3rd company in West Swertlikowo and 1./S.S.Rgt Westland caught this attack and quickly launched a counterattack. The 1st Company went to the heights directly west of the road from Swertlikowo to Pawlowka and the north edge of Swertlikowo and effectively took the enemy emerging from the wood under HE fire. The attack was beaten off within a half an hour and the counterattack reached to within 150 m of the wood west of Swertlikowo. After about a half an hour the enemy attack toward southwestern part of Swertlikowo from the south. A platoon of the 3rd Company is dispatch. Even before the front lines of the S.S., they together with the panzerjäger platoon launch a counter attack. The Soviet attack was defeated after a short fight.

During the late after the 2nd Company destroyed two enemy tank that approached Swertlikowo from the south.

Addition: A panzerjäger from 3rd Company that had had its tracks damaged and left behind. It later got lost and ended up in the Aufk.Abt. 341 sector. Tanks were just then discovered in the Aufk.Abt. sector. After a short fight the panzerjäger had destroyed two enemy tanks. At 19:00 the lone panzerjäger was returned to the Abteilung.

So far in the Russian Campaign the Abteilung has destroyed 60 enemy tanks. Of theses 32 had been destroyed while the Abtielung was with the 16.Inf.Div. (mot). Including the tanks destroyed in the French Campaign the Abtielung’s total is 82 destroyed enemy tanks.


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Re: What if Marders invented for Barbarossa?

#3

Post by Kingfish » 03 Apr 2015, 22:12

It wouldn't have mattered much if any.

There were many reasons for the Germans losing the war in the East, none of which were related to (or lack of) a specific weapon system.
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Re: What if Marders invented for Barbarossa?

#4

Post by stg 44 » 03 Apr 2015, 22:29

Not suggesting it would change the outcome of the war, rather what effect it would have had on the Eastern Front having an effective AT weapon in 1941 when the KV-1 and T-34 were on the prowl and the only think that could stop it was the FLAK 36.

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Re: What if Marders invented for Barbarossa?

#5

Post by BDV » 04 Apr 2015, 03:16

But the required kwk mark did not get to frontline until the winter 1941-42 (with the Stugs). And Wittmann scored a few KVs with his 75L24 armed Stug, afaik.
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Re: What if Marders invented for Barbarossa?

#6

Post by stg 44 » 04 Apr 2015, 04:09

BDV wrote:But the required kwk mark did not get to frontline until the winter 1941-42 (with the Stugs). And Wittmann scored a few KVs with his 75L24 armed Stug, afaik.
Probably with HEAT shells, which were limited to 500m.

The KWK mark is unnecessary as there was a 75mm L41 gun invented in 1934 and upgraded in 1936; they could have put it into production post-France if they wanted and it would fit just fine for the dual AT/HE role.

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Re: What if Marders invented for Barbarossa?

#7

Post by sitalkes » 04 Apr 2015, 06:49

In 1941 of the 20,000 soviet tanks destroyed by the Germans, very few were of the T34 or KV type, the vast majority were more thinly armoured and could easily be penetrated by the 47mm gun. What the Germans needed was not a different gun, but more of everything at the right place and the right time and all that entails, not the least of which would have been planning for the worst (e.g winter and a long war).

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Re: What if Marders invented for Barbarossa?

#8

Post by Erwinn » 04 Apr 2015, 09:28

T34 or KV1 was hardly a problem for Germans during 1941. There are some famous incidents about a KV tank stopping an entire Pz Division for a day IIRC, but they got isolated and picked off after a while.

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Re: What if Marders invented for Barbarossa?

#9

Post by stg 44 » 04 Apr 2015, 15:10

Erwinn wrote:T34 or KV1 was hardly a problem for Germans during 1941. There are some famous incidents about a KV tank stopping an entire Pz Division for a day IIRC, but they got isolated and picked off after a while.
Those tanks were not initially an issue, but the deeper the invasion got the more T-34s and KV-1s they encountered until they were the majority of Soviet AFVs around Moscow.

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Re: What if Marders invented for Barbarossa?

#10

Post by BDV » 04 Apr 2015, 17:04

stg 44 wrote:["BDV"]
The KWK mark is unnecessary as there was a 75mm L41 gun invented in 1934 and upgraded in 1936; they could have put it into production post-France if they wanted and it would fit just fine for the dual AT/HE role.
Do you have a good resource on this gun?
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Re: What if Marders invented for Barbarossa?

#11

Post by stg 44 » 04 Apr 2015, 19:34

Not really just what I already posted in the OP; it was used in North Africa historically:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pz.Sfl._II

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Re: What if Marders invented for Barbarossa?

#12

Post by ChristopherPerrien » 04 Apr 2015, 21:52

stg 44 wrote:the Panzerjager I was used in a similar role, but proved to be relatively weak against the French and British heavy tanks they encountered; what if they decided to upgun their SP TD units into something like the Marder that would have a role similar to the Soviet Su-76?


It would give the Germans an AT ability to engage and destroy the Soviet medium and heavy tanks they would encounter, while also having HE ability to support their tanks and infantry at greater distances; the Panzerjager I fell victim to the long range Soviet 76mm AT guns, who could engage the PzJgr I at much greater distances than it could respond to, causing them to be lost in significant numbers:
You are simply pre-supposing the Germans had AT weapons and doctrine employed in WWII, 4-6 years earlier than they did.

In that case, might as well have B-29's and atom bomb's developed in 1938 to 1941.
How Does WWII work out then?

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Re: What if Marders invented for Barbarossa?

#13

Post by stg 44 » 04 Apr 2015, 22:20

Not at all, the chassis were available, the guns were available, the combination was invented less than a year after the change I'm suggesting, and its already clear the Panzerjager I has limitations and there is a need for a heavier gun and chassis combination.

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Re: What if Marders invented for Barbarossa?

#14

Post by BDV » 04 Apr 2015, 22:45

Germans wanted 75 mm guns, mass produced them, but never mass produced the 40.8. So it must have left something (?) to be desired.

I think they can move faster into the mass use of 75 caliber if they use trophy 4.7 cm guns and occupied industries 4.7 cm caliber products as stopgaps instead of mass producing the 50 mm caliber.
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Re: What if Marders invented for Barbarossa?

#15

Post by stg 44 » 04 Apr 2015, 23:34

BDV wrote:Germans wanted 75 mm guns, mass produced them, but never mass produced the 40.8. So it must have left something (?) to be desired.

I think they can move faster into the mass use of 75 caliber if they use trophy 4.7 cm guns and occupied industries 4.7 cm caliber products as stopgaps instead of mass producing the 50 mm caliber.
I think the reason they jumped to the L43 version was to standardize on the PAK 40 development, plus it had a higher muzzle velocity. My suggestion hinged on the PAK 40 not being ready until late 1941 after Barbarossa started, so to have an early 75mm for AT work it would be the existing L41.

Rheinmetall made all the 75mm versions, first with the L41, then the L43 and L48

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