What if Marders invented for Barbarossa?

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pintere
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Re: What if Marders invented for Barbarossa?

#16

Post by pintere » 05 Apr 2015, 17:24

I think it would have helped, but not significantly so. After all, the numbers of T-34's and KV-1's were still in limited numbers during Barbarossa, and even when they were encountered in large numbers the Germans still often beat them. Nonetheless, if they did go with this, I think it would have been worth it. At the very least it would have been a big morale booster to have solid anti-tank cannons on a self propelled mount.

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Re: What if Marders invented for Barbarossa?

#17

Post by BDV » 06 Apr 2015, 03:13

T34s and KV1s helped but they were not a sine qua non. Also supporting a 46 ton behemoth on the field was not that easy. When accounting for cost and numbers (KVs were pricey) I cannot see Soviets doing worse pre-1943 with a force consisting of BT7s and "BT9s"

For example, the armor that routed "120 wristwatches" Manstein at Soltsy consisted of T26s.
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alltoes
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Re: What if Marders invented for Barbarossa?

#18

Post by alltoes » 06 Apr 2015, 16:05

Erwinn wrote:T34 or KV1 was hardly a problem for Germans during 1941. There are some famous incidents about a KV tank stopping an entire Pz Division for a day IIRC, but they got isolated and picked off after a while.
According to reports, a KV tank held an entire division for one day.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Raseiniai
Time was essential in the opening days of Barbarrossa. With a number of Marders in action during the initial stages, especially with the necessary support vehicles for supplies, it appears German penetration would have been greater. It is possible the Soltsy battle would have been a german success with the capture of Leningrad in 1941. Think of the possibilities if Leningrad was occupied in 1941. Manstein with 11th Army would have not left the Crimea.

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stg 44
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Re: What if Marders invented for Barbarossa?

#19

Post by stg 44 » 06 Apr 2015, 16:16

It would have left the Crimea after the fall of Sevatapol, but it would have stayed with AG-South and been a massive help in November.

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BDV
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Re: What if Marders invented for Barbarossa?

#20

Post by BDV » 07 Apr 2015, 02:59

50 mm was supposed to be enough for the Ostfront (hence it was massproduced and no rush on adopting the 75 mm caliber). Also, there was the 88mm to deal with the odd armored behemoth. Also, historically not even the Wehrmacht (much less all Axis forces on Ostfront) did not have enough 50 mm guns as it was.

Of course, in hindsight IMO, Germans should have gone to 75 mm ASAP, and bridge the gap with a hodge-podge of 47 mm guns (Bohler, Puteaux and Skoda). But I suspect Rheinmetall had much better links with the Nazi decisionmakers than Bohler, and they were going to get their profits from the PAK38 development work and the years of kissing up to Adolf and Co.
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Re: What if Marders invented for Barbarossa?

#21

Post by Kingfish » 07 Apr 2015, 18:49

stg 44 wrote:Not suggesting it would change the outcome of the war, rather what effect it would have had on the Eastern Front having an effective AT weapon in 1941 when the KV-1 and T-34 were on the prowl and the only think that could stop it was the FLAK 36.
This presupposes the Germans have advanced knowledge of the existence of the T34/KV-1.

If we assume so then I submit the Germans would not have settled with the interim design of the Marders, but instead opted for up-gunning the PZIII/IV/StuG fleet.

This would entail a delay in launching Barbarrosa - and another WI altogether.
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Re: What if Marders invented for Barbarossa?

#22

Post by stg 44 » 07 Apr 2015, 19:30

The KV-1 was used in the Winter war:
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9A%D0 ... 0.B8.D1.8F

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Re: What if Marders invented for Barbarossa?

#23

Post by stg 44 » 08 Apr 2015, 00:09


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BDV
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Re: What if Marders invented for Barbarossa?

#24

Post by BDV » 08 Apr 2015, 01:23

"What if Marders invented for Barbarossa?"

I guess, they were :P

They were called "4.7 cm PaK(t) (Sf) auf Panzerkampfwagen I ohne Turm"

P.S.
Were any KVs captured by finns?
Nobody expects the Fallschirm! Our chief weapon is surprise; surprise and fear; fear and surprise. Our 2 weapons are fear and surprise; and ruthless efficiency. Our *3* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency; and almost fanatical devotion

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