Ju 88 sticks to spec, enters production early

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SpicyJuan
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Re: Ju 88 sticks to spec, enters production early

#16

Post by SpicyJuan » 10 Oct 2015, 04:07

JAG13 wrote:An unobstructed bomb bay would have been nice as well allowing more useful load combinations.
From what I've heard, the center section really didn't impede on the loadouts as the Short Sterling did, except you couldn't carry an SC 2500 in the bomb-bay although it doesn't seem to be that big of deal as the ventral gunner station covered the SC 2500 so it didn't cause any extra drag.

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Re: Ju 88 sticks to spec, enters production early

#17

Post by JAG13 » 10 Oct 2015, 08:43

SpicyJuan wrote:
JAG13 wrote:An unobstructed bomb bay would have been nice as well allowing more useful load combinations.
From what I've heard, the center section really didn't impede on the loadouts as the Short Sterling did, except you couldn't carry an SC 2500 in the bomb-bay although it doesn't seem to be that big of deal as the ventral gunner station covered the SC 2500 so it didn't cause any extra drag.
The SC2500 would be nice since one could fit one in an unobstructed bay plus extra fuel, but I was rather thinking about carrying for example more SC500s, from 6 to 9 internal, or 6 to longer ranges, and up to 3 torpedoes.

Plus a couple internal Fritz-X would have been nice, dont you think?


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Re: Ju 88 sticks to spec, enters production early

#18

Post by Sheldrake » 10 Oct 2015, 15:34

The Germans insisted on dive bombing because they were aware of the inaccuracy of level bombing and until they had the Lofte sight, dive bombing was the most accurate method of hitting a point target.

The real issue is how German aircraft design would have developed if the Germans had developed a good level bombing sight earlier.
Last edited by Sheldrake on 10 Oct 2015, 23:38, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Ju 88 sticks to spec, enters production early

#19

Post by JAG13 » 10 Oct 2015, 16:10

Sheldrake wrote:The Germans insisted on dive bombing because they were aware of the inaccuracy of level bombing and until they had the Lofte sight, dive bombing was the most accurate method of hitting a point target.
It was Udet, without him even the Stuka would have died since it was cancelled by von Richthofen.

So not the Germans.

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Re: Ju 88 sticks to spec, enters production early

#20

Post by stg 44 » 10 Oct 2015, 19:03

BDV wrote:
stg 44 wrote:... saving experienced and highly trained crews that would have perished in Do 17s, plus of course those that survive due to having a faster, more effective version of the Ju 88?
Very difficult to diss on the Do 17. The Do 17 did what was required of it, didn't it? It had some good qualities, was available when needed.

Ju88 was slow to pick it up even in mid 1940, with some serious teething problems (IIRC).
That's the thing the Do17 was outmoded in 1939 and the Ju88 could have been in service by 1939 had it not been redesigned to dive bomb and have the ventral gondola added.

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Re: Ju 88 sticks to spec, enters production early

#21

Post by T. A. Gardner » 10 Oct 2015, 22:22

Let's start with accuracy. Although somewhat anecdotal, watch the difference in these videos:

[youtube]9T6OSPoQhnQ[/youtube]

Note how the vertically hung bombs wobble even after flattening out and how the drop pattern is much more jumbled. This is because the physics of the bomb having to change its flight path from vertical to horizontal induces wobble and results in additional initial drag over dropping them in the position they will assume for the remainder of their flight.

[youtube]eq0h4_PjyCQ[/youtube]

At about 7 minutes the bomb drops occur. You'll note the very smooth release and how the bombs cluster tightly together as they are dropped. They continue to fall smoothly with no wobble unlike the vertically dropped ones.

This is why pretty much everybody discarded the vertically hung bomb bay.

That aside, the only reason the Germans even used it was that their bomber designs primarily used low wing positions and they had to design the bomb bay around the spars for the wings. The US used primarily high wing positions to give a clean, clear large capacity (vertically) bomb bay and the British favored the mid wing position to give a large if shallow bay. These resulted in the ability of their aircraft to carry larger bombs internally (in the case of the British, very large bombs). It also meant that the bomb bay could carry a wider variety of ordinance.

Since we also know that speed was of little utility in defense of bombers, and that altitude was a better defense (it decreased the effectiveness of flak and proved difficult for many fighters to perform intercepts efficiently) it would have been better for the Luftwaffe to accept less speed, more defensive armament that was better laid out, and bombers that could operate at higher altitudes.
Had the Ju 88 looked more like the B-25 it would have been a better plane. The He 111 could have stood some redesign to give it a good tail defensive station and earlier adoption of power turrets.
In this respect the British were ahead of the curve in providing power turrets with good fields of fire. Their only mistake was sticking with the .303 machinegun in them.

While good defenses alone aren't going to protect a bomber formation, they would make attacking it more difficult and costly. This alone might have had sufficient impact in the BoB to allow the Luftwaffe to eke out a victory.

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Re: Ju 88 sticks to spec, enters production early

#22

Post by Sheldrake » 10 Oct 2015, 23:40

JAG13 wrote:
Sheldrake wrote:The Germans insisted on dive bombing because they were aware of the inaccuracy of level bombing and until they had the Lofte sight, dive bombing was the most accurate method of hitting a point target.
It was Udet, without him even the Stuka would have died since it was cancelled by von Richthofen.

So not the Germans.
Udet went for dive bombing because he saw the Curtiss dive bomber and knew that the existing level bombing sights were not accurate enough. In many ways the Germans were ahead of the game because the RAF did not discover how inaccurate their bombing was until 1941. The Germans cared enough about bombing accurately to stress their aircraft for dive bombing and train aircrew in a physically demanding and dangerous flight profile. The story of WW2 bombing was a trade off of accuracy for survival. Dive and low level bombing hot targets but at a high cost.

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Re: Ju 88 sticks to spec, enters production early

#23

Post by stg 44 » 10 Oct 2015, 23:51

T. A. Gardner wrote:Let's start with accuracy. Although somewhat anecdotal, watch the difference in these videos:

[youtube]9T6OSPoQhnQ[/youtube]

Note how the vertically hung bombs wobble even after flattening out and how the drop pattern is much more jumbled. This is because the physics of the bomb having to change its flight path from vertical to horizontal induces wobble and results in additional initial drag over dropping them in the position they will assume for the remainder of their flight.

[youtube]eq0h4_PjyCQ[/youtube]

At about 7 minutes the bomb drops occur. You'll note the very smooth release and how the bombs cluster tightly together as they are dropped. They continue to fall smoothly with no wobble unlike the vertically dropped ones.

This is why pretty much everybody discarded the vertically hung bomb bay.

That aside, the only reason the Germans even used it was that their bomber designs primarily used low wing positions and they had to design the bomb bay around the spars for the wings. The US used primarily high wing positions to give a clean, clear large capacity (vertically) bomb bay and the British favored the mid wing position to give a large if shallow bay. These resulted in the ability of their aircraft to carry larger bombs internally (in the case of the British, very large bombs). It also meant that the bomb bay could carry a wider variety of ordinance.

Since we also know that speed was of little utility in defense of bombers, and that altitude was a better defense (it decreased the effectiveness of flak and proved difficult for many fighters to perform intercepts efficiently) it would have been better for the Luftwaffe to accept less speed, more defensive armament that was better laid out, and bombers that could operate at higher altitudes.
Had the Ju 88 looked more like the B-25 it would have been a better plane. The He 111 could have stood some redesign to give it a good tail defensive station and earlier adoption of power turrets.
In this respect the British were ahead of the curve in providing power turrets with good fields of fire. Their only mistake was sticking with the .303 machinegun in them.

While good defenses alone aren't going to protect a bomber formation, they would make attacking it more difficult and costly. This alone might have had sufficient impact in the BoB to allow the Luftwaffe to eke out a victory.
Didn't we have a thread on this in the LW section that showed the reverse vertical bomb was more accurate than a horizontal dropped one?

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Re: Ju 88 sticks to spec, enters production early

#24

Post by JAG13 » 11 Oct 2015, 02:17

Sheldrake wrote:
JAG13 wrote:
Sheldrake wrote:The Germans insisted on dive bombing because they were aware of the inaccuracy of level bombing and until they had the Lofte sight, dive bombing was the most accurate method of hitting a point target.
It was Udet, without him even the Stuka would have died since it was cancelled by von Richthofen.

So not the Germans.
Udet went for dive bombing because he saw the Curtiss dive bomber and knew that the existing level bombing sights were not accurate enough. In many ways the Germans were ahead of the game because the RAF did not discover how inaccurate their bombing was until 1941. The Germans cared enough about bombing accurately to stress their aircraft for dive bombing and train aircrew in a physically demanding and dangerous flight profile. The story of WW2 bombing was a trade off of accuracy for survival. Dive and low level bombing hot targets but at a high cost.
By the time Udet saw the Curtiss, the Germans had already been conducting dive bombing trials with the A48 in Sweden and Russia, by the time Udet joined the LW the first generation dive bomber, the He-50, was being replaced by the Hs-123 and the contest for a new one was well underway. This is the program that produced the Ju-87, the third generation dive bomber, which flew before Udet even joined the LW.

What Udet stupidly did, was to go over the top and try to MAKE EVERYTHING A DIVE BOMBER, hence the Ju-88, He-177, Do-217 and Me-210 were modified, delayed and overburdened in order to add that capability, thus crippling them.

Udet was a moron, hired as a publicity stunt by an idiot, who in turn was the right hand of a madman.

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Re: Ju 88 sticks to spec, enters production early

#25

Post by T. A. Gardner » 11 Oct 2015, 05:59

The Ju 87's big appeal was it's "something for nothing" appeal to the Luftwaffe's top people. That is, it was cheap and could be built in large numbers. That made it attractive to bean counters who wanted large numbers of aircraft.
Cheap made it attractive in general.

The improved accuracy appealed to many top officers as a way to get a quart out of a pint. That is, you have a cheap dive bomber that can plant a bomb accurately versus a more expensive medium bomber that has to drop a bunch of bombs to get the same precision.

Udet and the Luftwaffe's dive bomber mania was just one of many fails in choosing aircraft and designs they made.

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Re: Ju 88 sticks to spec, enters production early

#26

Post by JAG13 » 11 Oct 2015, 07:21

T. A. Gardner wrote:The Ju 87's big appeal was it's "something for nothing" appeal to the Luftwaffe's top people. That is, it was cheap and could be built in large numbers. That made it attractive to bean counters who wanted large numbers of aircraft.
Cheap made it attractive in general.

The improved accuracy appealed to many top officers as a way to get a quart out of a pint. That is, you have a cheap dive bomber that can plant a bomb accurately versus a more expensive medium bomber that has to drop a bunch of bombs to get the same precision.

Udet and the Luftwaffe's dive bomber mania was just one of many fails in choosing aircraft and designs they made.
It wasnt cheaper nor better than the Ha-137 that von Richtofen favored and the reason why he had he 87 cancelled, and it carried a couple 20mm and was slightly faster (with the advantage to be increased with better engines), far sturdier and a single seater... but Udet also liked gunners so everything got extra gunners and even gondolas.

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Re: Ju 88 sticks to spec, enters production early

#27

Post by stg 44 » 11 Oct 2015, 18:22

JAG13 wrote:
T. A. Gardner wrote:The Ju 87's big appeal was it's "something for nothing" appeal to the Luftwaffe's top people. That is, it was cheap and could be built in large numbers. That made it attractive to bean counters who wanted large numbers of aircraft.
Cheap made it attractive in general.

The improved accuracy appealed to many top officers as a way to get a quart out of a pint. That is, you have a cheap dive bomber that can plant a bomb accurately versus a more expensive medium bomber that has to drop a bunch of bombs to get the same precision.

Udet and the Luftwaffe's dive bomber mania was just one of many fails in choosing aircraft and designs they made.
It wasnt cheaper nor better than the Ha-137 that von Richtofen favored and the reason why he had he 87 cancelled, and it carried a couple 20mm and was slightly faster (with the advantage to be increased with better engines), far sturdier and a single seater... but Udet also liked gunners so everything got extra gunners and even gondolas.
The Ha137 wasn't a dive bomber, it was a ground attack aircraft.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blohm_%26_Voss_Ha_137

Its competition was the He118, which was inferior to the Ju87 is that it couldn't dive to 90 degrees.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinkel_He_118
T. A. Gardner wrote:The Ju 87's big appeal was it's "something for nothing" appeal to the Luftwaffe's top people. That is, it was cheap and could be built in large numbers. That made it attractive to bean counters who wanted large numbers of aircraft.
Cheap made it attractive in general.

The improved accuracy appealed to many top officers as a way to get a quart out of a pint. That is, you have a cheap dive bomber that can plant a bomb accurately versus a more expensive medium bomber that has to drop a bunch of bombs to get the same precision.

Udet and the Luftwaffe's dive bomber mania was just one of many fails in choosing aircraft and designs they made.
The counterpoint was Richthofen who said the Stuka was a dying concept due to the likely increase in AAA power, which he was right about, by 1943 in the East it was unworkable and definitely before that in the West.

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Re: Ju 88 sticks to spec, enters production early

#28

Post by JAG13 » 11 Oct 2015, 20:38

stg 44 wrote:
JAG13 wrote:
T. A. Gardner wrote:The Ju 87's big appeal was it's "something for nothing" appeal to the Luftwaffe's top people. That is, it was cheap and could be built in large numbers. That made it attractive to bean counters who wanted large numbers of aircraft.
Cheap made it attractive in general.

The improved accuracy appealed to many top officers as a way to get a quart out of a pint. That is, you have a cheap dive bomber that can plant a bomb accurately versus a more expensive medium bomber that has to drop a bunch of bombs to get the same precision.

Udet and the Luftwaffe's dive bomber mania was just one of many fails in choosing aircraft and designs they made.
It wasnt cheaper nor better than the Ha-137 that von Richtofen favored and the reason why he had he 87 cancelled, and it carried a couple 20mm and was slightly faster (with the advantage to be increased with better engines), far sturdier and a single seater... but Udet also liked gunners so everything got extra gunners and even gondolas.
The Ha137 wasn't a dive bomber, it was a ground attack aircraft.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blohm_%26_Voss_Ha_137
The Ha-137 was a dive bomber and underwent the same dive bombing trials, apparently many people fully expected the aircraft to beat the Ju-87 and were surprised when it was ignored.

From Stuka! - Joachim Dressel:

In the fuselage of the fourth prototype Ha 137V4, D-IFOE, a Jumo 210 A-1 engine of 610hp was fitted by Blohm & Voss. Colonel von Richthofen proposed producing the Ha 137 in large quantities, but Ernst Udet, who became the Generalluftzeugmeister and was responsible for all kinds of development of new aircraft for the Luftwaffe, decided to cancel the Blohm & Voss aircraft even though the flight behaviour was very good and the conversions showed an improved armament consisting of two 20mm cannon and two MG 17.


From Ju-87 Stuka - Robert Jackson:

Powered by the 610-hp Jumo 2I0Aa, the new aircraft were the Ha 137V-4 (D-IFOE) and V-5 (D-IUXU). The radial-engined and in-line engined versions were respectively designated Ha 137A and Ha 137B, the latter being the proposed production version. The Ha 137 was designed around a wing based on a single strong tubular spar which also served as the fuel tank. It was tough and maneuverable, and a certain amount of surprise was expressed in some quarters when it lost out to the Ju 87. The decision, however, had political undertones, as the Blohm and Voss concern was originally of Jewish origin.


From JUNKERS Ju-87 Stuka - Peter Smith:

The first round of tests began in May. Both the Ar 81 and the smaller Ha 137 were eliminated early in the contest, despite the fact that Udet, as Director of Air Armament, favoured the former and von Richthofen, Chief of the Technische Amt, the latter. Udet's choice was influenced by the fact that the Arado was a biplane...

...

On 9 June 1936 von Richthofen, adamant as ever, ordered the cessation of all further work on the Ju 87, but on 10 June he was undermined by the appoint-ment of Udet himself to the command of. the Technical Office, whereupon the lat-ter immediately reversed this decision. In his new position Udet could now press the dive-bombing idea, and adopted brainchild, to the limit.


The Ha-137 was part of the same dive bomber program, you should know better than to try to quote wikipedia.
Its competition was the He118, which was inferior to the Ju87 is that it couldn't dive to 90 degrees.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinkel_He_118
A dive bomber that couldnt dive bomb...

And you forgot the last contestant the Ar-81.

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Re: Ju 88 sticks to spec, enters production early

#29

Post by stg 44 » 11 Oct 2015, 20:41

Frankly the Hs123 was a better option than the Ha-137, the Ar-81 was a limited design that couldn't get improved engines like the Ju-87

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Re: Ju 88 sticks to spec, enters production early

#30

Post by Sheldrake » 11 Oct 2015, 21:36

Lets get back to the thread.

The unmodified Ju898 was a fast medium bomber good for level bombing big targets such as cities and a hard to catch recce aircraft. It might have enabled the Luftwaffe to bomb London with impunity - which they did anyway at night. By 1941 it would have been very vulnerable to the next generation of fighter aircraft.

The unmodified Ju88 might have been a German "Mosquito" but the Luftwaffe did not think they needed a "Mosquito." It did not fit into their doctrine.

The A4 was an extremely versatile bomber. Its dive bombing capability made it one of the best anti shipping aircraft of the era.

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