What if Udet dies, Richthofen stays in Development Branch?

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stg 44
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What if Udet dies, Richthofen stays in Development Branch?

#1

Post by stg 44 » 22 Jun 2015, 14:36

After Walter Wever's death in 1936 Udet took over the Technical Branch and historically got into a feud with Wolfram von Richthofen, prompting him to leave the Development Branch to go to Spain as CoS of the Condor Legion. Right after Wever's death Udet was testing dive bombers and nearly was killed when testing the He118 as he tried to take it into a vertical dive while it was only designed for a 50 degree dive. What if Udet had been killed instead of successfully bailing out? Who would replace him or would Wilhelm Wimmer stay at the T-Amt? Assuming Richthofen then stays with the Development Office his influence on designs would remain and dive bombing wouldn't get into vogue. What other effects would this have on the Luftwaffe without Richthofen leaving and developing CAS doctrine in Spain? I imagine someone like Plocher would go instead, as that is the officer that replaced him later in Spain anyway. I don't think CAS is affected because the LW was already headed in that direction and it really was in Poland where a lot of the procedures were worked out and developed and Richthofen was not a singular genius in figuring that out. Dive bombing probably does not take hold without Udet pushing it, so that has huge impact on all sorts of projects (He177, Ju88, Me210, Do217). Maybe Richthofen's baby the Fw187 gets into production?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinkel_He_118
On 27 June 1936, Ernst Udet arrived at the Heinkel manufacturing company to try out the He 118. Soon after he commenced his first dive from about 13,000 feet the propeller suddenly feathered, shearing off the reduction gears, and the He 118 disintegrated around the pilot. Udet parachuted to safety. The Ju 87 repeatedly demonstrated dives at 90 degrees with no trouble, and so was officially declared winner of this contest.

Heinkel complained in his biography that Udet ignored instructions and flew the aircraft outside of its limits. He suggests that this failure doomed his design, in spite of the historically recorded facts of the superior dive angle of the Stuka.

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Re: What if Udet dies, Richthofen stays in Development Branch?

#2

Post by SpicyJuan » 23 Jun 2015, 05:31

Does Wever survive?

In any case, it's hard to get even more incompetent than Udet, and we'll definitely not see the He 112U :milwink:

Seriously though, no dive-bombing requirement for the He 177 might either mean a (historically later) He 177A that might just work if the Heinkel designers decided to drink while on the job, or if we have someone actually competent (such as Wimmer or Richtofen) the He 177A would be bypassed altogether for the He 177B. Also, I doubt the Bomber B program would actually progress further than from the concept, or if it did, it would not nearly have as extremely advanced requirements. What would also be interesting is how the new head of the development office handles Milch, does he still get to screw up the Jumo 222? What of the DB 604? As for the Me 210 debacle, I can hardly see it still happen as either the Zerstörer concept is put aside or if it is competently worked out (a shame as I'd really like to see my favorite a/c the Arado 240/440 be put into production :cry:).

In any case, it's hard to imagine the Luftwaffe (or I'd go as far as to extend that to Germany) come off worse than they did historically with Udet.


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Re: What if Udet dies, Richthofen stays in Development Branch?

#3

Post by stg 44 » 23 Jun 2015, 13:10

Eric Brown flew the Ar240 and was not a fan, nor did he like the Me410

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Re: What if Udet dies, Richthofen stays in Development Branch?

#4

Post by stg 44 » 23 Jun 2015, 14:13

An interesting idea is if the DB603 isn't cancelled then that engine could be around sooner at high power and reliablity, which may make it viable for the Ta-152 to show up sooner, but mainly the C-series of that aircraft, which would be highly effective at 'normal' altitudes before 25k feet. With longer range, greater speed, and heavier firepower it could have been a dangerous aircraft to match the British Typhoon.

As to the Jumo 222 in this scenario I think without the Ju288 and feud with Koppenburg Milch has no reason to sabotage the engine in his political struggle.

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Re: What if Udet dies, Richthofen stays in Development Branch?

#5

Post by JAG13 » 23 Jun 2015, 17:50

The Stuka dies, the Germans get the Ha-137 as its dive bomber/CAS:

Image

Faster, much, much more maneuverable, 2x20mm MG FF, 2xMG17, 1x250Kg plus 4x50Kg.

No diving requirements for anything else, lots of faster Ju-88 and He-177Bs available earlier than historical.

Bf-110 dies.
Last edited by JAG13 on 23 Jun 2015, 17:53, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What if Udet dies, Richthofen stays in Development Branch?

#6

Post by SpicyJuan » 23 Jun 2015, 17:51

stg 44 wrote:Eric Brown flew the Ar240 and was not a fan, nor did he like the Me410
Of course he didn't like the Ar 240, it like the Me 210 were very poor aircraft due to their handling woes, but the Ar 440 corrected this. Eric Brown was not a big fan of the Me 410's flying qualities, but that doesn't mean the 410 was an overall failure, as it turned out to be an effective Zerstörer, and ground attack a/c that was apparently well liked by its crews. A better example is that of the Hungarian Me 210C's which corrected nearly all of the main handling problems, and which they adored that came at be right time (1942).

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Re: What if Udet dies, Richthofen stays in Development Branch?

#7

Post by stg 44 » 23 Jun 2015, 18:09

When was the Me410 and effective Zerstörer? It was slaughtered when it got into serious action in late 1943. It was a far better fast/light bomber, but barely used in that role. The Hungarians loves their bomber version of the Me210C, the Me410 was a failure as a heavy fighter against bombers because it could not handle escort fighters, yet that was its primary mission. Ulitmately the Ar234 was the ideal fast recon aircraft, where the Ar440 and 410 were very good. I'm much more for the Fw187C for the heavy fighter/bomber destroyer role and think it probably could have been just as good as a fighter-bomber as the Me410 was as a lighter bomber. The Fw187 could have also done recon work, but as I said the Ar234 was best for that.

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Re: What if Udet dies, Richthofen stays in Development Branch?

#8

Post by stg 44 » 23 Jun 2015, 18:13

JAG13 wrote:The Stuka dies, the Germans get the Ha-137 as its dive bomber/CAS:

Faster, much, much more maneuverable, 2x20mm MG FF, 2xMG17, 1x250Kg plus 4x50Kg.

No diving requirements for anything else, lots of faster Ju-88 and He-177Bs available earlier than historical.

Bf-110 dies.
With a Jumo 211 that might have been a better choice than the Hs129. Of course I'm partial to the Hs123 and think it should have been mass produced to give every Panzer division 40 as an organic support weapon much like how helicopters are used today in armor divisions.

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Re: What if Udet dies, Richthofen stays in Development Branch?

#9

Post by SpicyJuan » 23 Jun 2015, 18:23

JAG13 wrote:The Stuka dies, the Germans get the Ha-137 as its dive bomber/CAS:

Image

Faster, much, much more maneuverable, 2x20mm MG FF, 2xMG17, 1x250Kg plus 4x50Kg.

No diving requirements for anything else, lots of faster Ju-88 and He-177Bs available earlier than historical.

Bf-110 dies.
Doubt it. With Junkers being the fair-haired boy of the RLM, the Ju 87 was pre-determined to win the contest, but the Ha was considered for CAS work until Udet took over and cancelled it, so we may see it as a CAS.

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Re: What if Udet dies, Richthofen stays in Development Branch?

#10

Post by Don71 » 23 Jun 2015, 18:31

The Ha-137 had massive problems with it's stability and it's controls.
4 prototypes were tested at Rechlin and the criticism from the Rechlin pilots were crushing.

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Re: What if Udet dies, Richthofen stays in Development Branch?

#11

Post by SpicyJuan » 23 Jun 2015, 20:01

stg 44 wrote:When was the Me410 and effective Zerstörer? It was slaughtered when it got into serious action in late 1943. It was a far better fast/light bomber, but barely used in that role. The Hungarians loves their bomber version of the Me210C, the Me410 was a failure as a heavy fighter against bombers because it could not handle escort fighters, yet that was its primary mission. Ulitmately the Ar234 was the ideal fast recon aircraft, where the Ar440 and 410 were very good. I'm much more for the Fw187C for the heavy fighter/bomber destroyer role and think it probably could have been just as good as a fighter-bomber as the Me410 was as a lighter bomber. The Fw187 could have also done recon work, but as I said the Ar234 was best for that.
Those are all salient points that I agree with. As for the 410 as a destroyer, I meant it would've been an effective destroyer if it had been employed earlier without escorts getting in its way. The Arado 240/440 might have been able to do well with its high speed, but would probably require escorts since getting in any dogfights with it would be suicide (since it had such high wing loading). Ultimately, the Fw 187 would most likely be the only a/c out of the bunch to be able to go toe on toe with the allied escorts.

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Re: What if Udet dies, Richthofen stays in Development Branch?

#12

Post by JAG13 » 23 Jun 2015, 20:59

SpicyJuan wrote:
JAG13 wrote:The Stuka dies, the Germans get the Ha-137 as its dive bomber/CAS:

Image

Faster, much, much more maneuverable, 2x20mm MG FF, 2xMG17, 1x250Kg plus 4x50Kg.

No diving requirements for anything else, lots of faster Ju-88 and He-177Bs available earlier than historical.

Bf-110 dies.
Doubt it. With Junkers being the fair-haired boy of the RLM, the Ju 87 was pre-determined to win the contest, but the Ha was considered for CAS work until Udet took over and cancelled it, so we may see it as a CAS.
Richtofen favoured the Ha-137 over the heavier Stuka and had it CANCELLED, IIRC Udet assumed office shortly thereafter and had it reinstated.

No Udet = No Stuka.

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Re: What if Udet dies, Richthofen stays in Development Branch?

#13

Post by JAG13 » 23 Jun 2015, 21:01

Don71 wrote:The Ha-137 had massive problems with it's stability and it's controls.
4 prototypes were tested at Rechlin and the criticism from the Rechlin pilots were crushing.
I read somewhere (Ill look it up) that Richtofen favored the aircraft and people were surprised it didnt win the contest, it is the first time I hear any negative comments on the aircraft. I would be grateful to know where did you read that.

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Re: What if Udet dies, Richthofen stays in Development Branch?

#14

Post by JAG13 » 23 Jun 2015, 21:20

From Stuka! - Joachim Dressel:

In the fuselage of the fourth prototype Ha 137V4, D-IFOE, a Jumo 210 A-1 engine of 610hp was fitted by Blohm & Voss. Colonel von Richthofen proposed producing the Ha 137 in large quantities, but Ernst Udet, who became the Generalluftzeugmeister and was responsible for all kinds of development of new aircraft for the Luftwaffe, decided to cancel the Blohm & Voss aircraft even though the flight behaviour was very good and the conversions showed an improved armament consisting of two 20mm cannon and two MG 17.


From Ju-87 Stuka - Robert Jackson:

Powered by the 610-hp Jumo 2I0Aa, the new aircraft were the Ha 137V-4 (D-IFOE) and V-5 (D-IUXU). The radial-engined and in-line engined versions were respectively designated Ha 137A and Ha 137B, the latter being the proposed production version. The Ha 137 was designed around a wing based on a single strong tubular spar which also served as the fuel tank. It was tough and maneuverable, and a certain amount of surprise was expressed in some quarters when it lost out to the Ju 87. The decision, however, had political undertones, as the Blohm and Voss concern was originally of Jewish origin.


From JUNKERS Ju-87 Stuka - Peter Smith:

The first round of tests began in May. Both the Ar 81 and the smaller Ha 137 were eliminated early in the contest, despite the fact that Udet, as Director of Air Armament, favoured the former and von Richthofen, Chief of the Technische Amt, the latter. Udet's choice was influenced by the fact that the Arado was a biplane...

...

On 9 June 1936 von Richthofen, adamant as ever, ordered the cessation of all further work on the Ju 87, but on 10 June he was undermined by the appoint-ment of Udet himself to the command of. the Technical Office, whereupon the lat-ter immediately reversed this decision. In his new position Udet could now press the dive-bombing idea, and adopted brainchild, to the limit.

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Re: What if Udet dies, Richthofen stays in Development Branch?

#15

Post by SpicyJuan » 23 Jun 2015, 21:25

JAG13 wrote:
Don71 wrote:The Ha-137 had massive problems with it's stability and it's controls.
4 prototypes were tested at Rechlin and the criticism from the Rechlin pilots were crushing.
I read somewhere (Ill look it up) that Richtofen favored the aircraft and people were surprised it didnt win the contest, it is the first time I hear any negative comments on the aircraft. I would be grateful to know where did you read that.
EDIT: see my post after this.
Last edited by SpicyJuan on 23 Jun 2015, 21:28, edited 1 time in total.

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