Interesting, the but the Ju 87 was cancelled in favor of the He 118, but then Udet reinstated the 87 which was the better choice. What was the Ha 137's max diving angle?JAG13 wrote:From Stuka! - Joachim Dressel:
In the fuselage of the fourth prototype Ha 137V4, D-IFOE, a Jumo 210 A-1 engine of 610hp was fitted by Blohm & Voss. Colonel von Richthofen proposed producing the Ha 137 in large quantities, but Ernst Udet, who became the Generalluftzeugmeister and was responsible for all kinds of development of new aircraft for the Luftwaffe, decided to cancel the Blohm & Voss aircraft even though the flight behaviour was very good and the conversions showed an improved armament consisting of two 20mm cannon and two MG 17.
From Ju-87 Stuka - Robert Jackson:
Powered by the 610-hp Jumo 2I0Aa, the new aircraft were the Ha 137V-4 (D-IFOE) and V-5 (D-IUXU). The radial-engined and in-line engined versions were respectively designated Ha 137A and Ha 137B, the latter being the proposed production version. The Ha 137 was designed around a wing based on a single strong tubular spar which also served as the fuel tank. It was tough and maneuverable, and a certain amount of surprise was expressed in some quarters when it lost out to the Ju 87. The decision, however, had political undertones, as the Blohm and Voss concern was originally of Jewish origin.
From JUNKERS Ju-87 Stuka - Peter Smith:
The first round of tests began in May. Both the Ar 81 and the smaller Ha 137 were eliminated early in the contest, despite the fact that Udet, as Director of Air Armament, favoured the former and von Richthofen, Chief of the Technische Amt, the latter. Udet's choice was influenced by the fact that the Arado was a biplane...
...
On 9 June 1936 von Richthofen, adamant as ever, ordered the cessation of all further work on the Ju 87, but on 10 June he was undermined by the appoint-ment of Udet himself to the command of. the Technical Office, whereupon the lat-ter immediately reversed this decision. In his new position Udet could now press the dive-bombing idea, and adopted brainchild, to the limit.
What if Udet dies, Richthofen stays in Development Branch?
Re: What if Udet dies, Richthofen stays in Development Branch?
Re: What if Udet dies, Richthofen stays in Development Branch?
The Ha-137 used a tubular spar which made the wing very, very strong, it was even used as a fuel tank. From what I recall, there were no diving limitations, but I would have to dig. The He-118 was useless, coulnt dive and wasnt sturdy, Richtofen had a thing for CAS aircraft, strong and durable so they could follow armies around and support them from unprepared fields, the Ha-137 would have been ideal for that and I believe Richtofen would have gone for it instead of the rather delicate Heinkel (he tried to cancel the whole program once the Ha-137 was out).SpicyJuan wrote: Interesting, the but the Ju 87 was cancelled in favor of the He 118, but then Udet reinstated the 87 which was the better choice. What was the Ha 137's max diving angle?
A suggestion, take all statements by Heinkel with a grain of salt, ALL Heinkel aircrafts were ALWAYS the best and only lost due to some political BS or something, never through fault of their own. Take the He-177, he blamed the engines (and those werent blameless), but most of the issues were fixed by improving its installation, the nacelles of the aircraft, so Heinkel did have a degree of responsibility there.
Re: What if Udet dies, Richthofen stays in Development Branch?
I like the look of the 137 and it would have been faster and a better straffer, the only issue is the liquid cooled engine...stg 44 wrote:With a Jumo 211 that might have been a better choice than the Hs129. Of course I'm partial to the Hs123 and think it should have been mass produced to give every Panzer division 40 as an organic support weapon much like how helicopters are used today in armor divisions.JAG13 wrote:The Stuka dies, the Germans get the Ha-137 as its dive bomber/CAS:
Faster, much, much more maneuverable, 2x20mm MG FF, 2xMG17, 1x250Kg plus 4x50Kg.
No diving requirements for anything else, lots of faster Ju-88 and He-177Bs available earlier than historical.
Bf-110 dies.
Cant replace the Hs-129, whole different kind of bird and better suited for the CAS mission, just give it a couple of Sakae engines for a better power/weight ratio and its good to go.
Re: What if Udet dies, Richthofen stays in Development Branch?
The Sturmovik had a liquid cooled engine.
Re: What if Udet dies, Richthofen stays in Development Branch?
True, but a radial is always better for CAS since it can withstand more damage and is less vulnerable, that is if you care whether your pilots make it back or not.stg 44 wrote:The Sturmovik had a liquid cooled engine.
Again here a Sakae would have been a good option, small diameter and weight, yet quite powerful for its size.
Re: What if Udet dies, Richthofen stays in Development Branch?
Its really more about the engine being armored than what type it is. The Hs129 had radials that were unarmored and it took all sorts of engine damage that downed it, which the inline engine of the Sturmovik took direct hits to the engine and kept flying.JAG13 wrote:True, but a radial is always better for CAS since it can withstand more damage and is less vulnerable, that is if you care whether your pilots make it back or not.stg 44 wrote:The Sturmovik had a liquid cooled engine.
Again here a Sakae would have been a good option, small diameter and weight, yet quite powerful for its size.
Re: What if Udet dies, Richthofen stays in Development Branch?
The 129 could fly on on e engine, and its armoured "bathtub" made belly landings quite safe, but being underpowered didnt help the Henschel, give it decent radials so it can return on one while carrying the MK-103 and its golden. I rather have redundancy than armour in a CAS aircraft, IF one engine can take me home.stg 44 wrote:Its really more about the engine being armored than what type it is. The Hs129 had radials that were unarmored and it took all sorts of engine damage that downed it, which the inline engine of the Sturmovik took direct hits to the engine and kept flying.JAG13 wrote:True, but a radial is always better for CAS since it can withstand more damage and is less vulnerable, that is if you care whether your pilots make it back or not.stg 44 wrote:The Sturmovik had a liquid cooled engine.
Again here a Sakae would have been a good option, small diameter and weight, yet quite powerful for its size.
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Re: What if Udet dies, Richthofen stays in Development Branch?
Richthofen was the one who requested the HS-123 be revived correct?stg 44 wrote:Of course I'm partial to the Hs123 and think it should have been mass produced to give every Panzer division 40 as an organic support weapon much like how helicopters are used today in armor divisions.
puzzling in a way that of all the aircraft kept in production the 123 halted, especially since it would be ideal for some of Germany's Balkan allies.
even if produced instead of OTL HS-126 run of approx. 500?
Re: What if Udet dies, Richthofen stays in Development Branch?
No, that's a net negative. The roles of the two a/c are completely different. The Hs 123 was a dedicated CAS while the 126 was an army-cooperation aircraft. Does anyone know what happened to the 123's factory? It may be possible to keep the 123 in production without sacrificing anything with the exception of pilots.thaddeus_c wrote:Richthofen was the one who requested the HS-123 be revived correct?stg 44 wrote:Of course I'm partial to the Hs123 and think it should have been mass produced to give every Panzer division 40 as an organic support weapon much like how helicopters are used today in armor divisions.
puzzling in a way that of all the aircraft kept in production the 123 halted, especially since it would be ideal for some of Germany's Balkan allies.
even if produced instead of OTL HS-126 run of approx. 500?
Re: What if Udet dies, Richthofen stays in Development Branch?
The jigs were scrapped in 1940 so when Richthofen asked for them to be put back in production in 1943 it was too late. IMHO they were so cheap using a tried and true engine that it would have been very easy to keep them in production at minimal cost. Perhaps fewer Hs129s and how useless those were in many respects it would have kept more pilots alive to have them fly Hs123Cs instead.