German Invasion of Iceland June 1941

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Phaing
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Re: German Invasion of Iceland June 1941

#196

Post by Phaing » 13 Aug 2015, 04:50

Takao wrote: Weapon War Establishment Actual Holding

http://70brigade.newmp.org.uk/wiki/Icel ... ember_1941
Unit locations and dates are listed in the bottom half of the page.
Once again, thanks for the source material. :thumbsup:

All at Reykjavik?
There were only 43,000 people in the while metro area, it wasn't a big place in 1941.
What about the Vogar area? 20 minute on Google Maps is all I needed to see what a great landing place that is, and it's only a dozen miles away.

Okay, that seems like a lot, but looking at the actual units what we have there is 4 Battalions. That's what the teeth of that Brigade amounts to.
A German alpine DIv. has 7 field Battalions and there is the SS Battalion added in. And, the kicker is that the Brits have Anti-tank Rifles, but not AT cannon, none at all.
30 Panzers isn't exactly Blitzkrieg material, but its the most I can see being brought in and certainly all you would want to try to support in a place like this, but looking at what had just happened in Greece in engagements involving far smaller units in various engagements... its enough.


Now, I promised to Get the subsidiary operations outlined before going any farther with Iceland, and I'm going to do it.
Last edited by Phaing on 13 Aug 2015, 06:19, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: German Invasion of Iceland June 1941

#197

Post by Phaing » 13 Aug 2015, 04:51

Chronologically, I have to start with the Shetlands.
This one really is a mess, poke away if you like, but I do see value here, because it is the only one where land-based aircraft from Norway can take part.
It would be asinine to try to hold it, even for a day.

That is why this little operation is starting an hour before Sunset, May 24th.
Firstly there is a raid by about 50 Ju-88 on the Airfield at Sumburgh. A heavier hit than usual, but these things happen in outposts like the Shetlands. They missed the runway but made a right mess of the facilities. Not much of an intercept is possible against the fast-moving little bombers, the Luftwaffe's last visit to London wasn't that long ago and most night-capable fighters are still down that way.
However, half an hour before sunset, another 50 bombers arrive, along with 60 Me-110 Fighters escorting them (used in mass numbers, and some frightening surprises.
Enter the Me-321 Gigant.

The first Me 321 A-1 production aircraft entered service in May 1941 with Grossraumlastensegler 321 at Leipheim, initially towed by Ju 90s. Once again serendipity seems to be lending a hand... but I limit this operation to just half a dozen of them. There weren't that many Ju-90s around, and this will be a one-way trip for the giant gliders.
Now, they also can't land just anywhere, the British were very good at setting up barricades in fields where Gliders might have come in for a landing. But they can't do that with an active airfield.
Hello Sumburgh. 8O

Normal Paratroops can be used as well, and extracted by night-flying Ju-52s or other means, but the real punch will be supplied by the Gigants. They have a payload of 23 tone, but the towing aircraft can't manage that much drag, so lets hold them to about 16 tons. That is still enough for a Mark II and a Sdkfz-250 scout halftrack. Two of the later should have 81mm mortars, and you can switch out one or two of the Mark II for a Mark I SP with the 47mm gun.
And off you go, on a merry little tank-raid all the way to places like Lerwick and Scalloway.

All of that raiding happens during the very short (5-6 hour) night, and the vehicles will be destroyed by their crews once it's over. How to extract them?
1- if they make it back to Sumburgh in time, fly them off with the grunts that secured the airstrip.
2- if not, they can call for extraction by Seaplanes or
3 the navy will be there too.

Yes, the KM is there, I have those three TBs and three Minesweepers there, but their main job will be to clear a path for the Brummer.
No, not the one that was made in Germany and already lost. This one is the Captured Norwegian ship that was briefly named Albatros, not named Brummer. Confusing, isn't it?
This baby will lay it's 280 mines across the path of any RN ships that come boiling out of Scapa to react to this raid. The pay-off could be enormous.

And any troops that get left behind are to head for the hills, snipe away until they run out of ammo, giving the impression that there it still a significant presence here... even if the incredible arrival of Panzers on those islands hadn't caused enough consternation in Whitehall.

The next operation kicks off before this one is completely over....


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Re: German Invasion of Iceland June 1941

#198

Post by Urmel » 13 Aug 2015, 05:58

Paul Lakowski wrote:The British tried all this crap in Norway and failed miserably.
They did? Really?

Well I guess I must have imagined all that stuff about Allied forces capturing Narvik in 1940 and holding it to 7 June, only retreating when threatened by the land route and due to strategic pressure from the campaign in France, neither of which would have been an issue in this scenario (even though some people believe the Germans can walk on water).
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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Re: German Invasion of Iceland June 1941

#199

Post by Phaing » 13 Aug 2015, 06:08

Faeroe fun.
Faeroes; Lutzow, CA Hipper, CL Leipzig, 7 x DDs, 3 x Minesweepers, Seaplane Depot ship (p), Grille (p)
2 x transport, 2 cargo
There are no aircraft based here, there can't be since the RAF didn't even start with an airfield until 1942 and it wasn't fully serviceable until 1943.
Which means the Germans don't need much, either. If weather permits, they can use their 5 scout planes, but that's anyone's guess.

One Regiment is what I said should be landed here, with some extra goodies above and beyond what the firepower of two major warships can provide. There were a good many Mark II set up for Sealion with flotation pontoons. A dozen of those should give the invaders a nice edge, and don't throw the flotation gear away, it may come in handy later on. There are a huge number of little Fjords here (its practically a little Norway) and few roads and rough terrain.
The UK garrison is 2 (?) Battalions of Scottish Light infantry, and reports indicate that their effectiveness suffered while they were there... although they did manage to shoot down a German aircraft with a Bren gun one day.

This one is pretty straightforward, but I should mention the ships staying;
A Seaplane Depot ship wasn't in the KM at the time, something should be rigged up with supplies and some light repair capacity. There are a myriad of hiding places there, and this would make an ideal Seaplane base... on those rare days when the weather cooperates. There won't be many of those in the winter, and even in Summer its a coin-toss.

Grille.
Yup, Hitler's old Yacht, might as well get some use out of it. It's fast, the range is huge, and it can transport small groups of infantry for patrols in hard to reach places. It also had 3 x 88mm (or 105mm, depending on the source) to fight with.

Whew!
That's enough for a while, back to the usual stuff now, I guess.

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Re: German Invasion of Iceland June 1941

#200

Post by Phaing » 13 Aug 2015, 06:12

SpicyJuan wrote: Greenhill is a publisher that prints alternate history collections of alternate histories and POD's which are a little less on the counter-factual side, but really fun to read, and are typically very interesting.
Oh, okay, sounds interesting.
So it's not a Game company, but short stories? I should have a look..... just as long as that guy Turtledove has nothing to do with it! :?

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Re: German Invasion of Iceland June 1941

#201

Post by Takao » 13 Aug 2015, 10:42

Phaing wrote:Sorry Phiang...The next carrier fighter was to be the Me-155A.

You mean the The Blohm & Voss BV 155?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blohm_%26_Voss_BV_155
That beast didn't fly until 1944. Come on, you wanted to argue about shaving a week off a years worth of a repair schedule, but your going to give me a 1944 fighter in 1941?
Talk about over-generouis :P
Please...Read your own source before posting. You will appear a lot less foolish by doing so.
As per your own source
The saga of the BV 155 began at Messerschmitt in the spring of 1942. At that time, it was known under the designation of Me 155, and was a company proposal for a carrier-based single-seat fighter. The Me 155 was intended to be based aboard the aircraft carrier Graf Zeppelin, then under construction. In the interest of economy and simplicity, the Me 155 was to use as many Messerschmitt Bf 109 components as possible, being basically a navalized version of the earlier Messerschmitt fighter.

The Me 155 was to be powered by a DB 605A-1 liquid-cooled engine of 1,475 PS (1,455 hp, 1,085 kW). The fuselage was more-or-less that of the standard Bf 109G, but with an entirely new wing. The undercarriage retracted inwards into wing wells, providing the wider track required for safe carrier landings. Standard naval equipment such as folding wings, catapult spools, and arrester gear were to be fitted. Proposed armament was an engine mounted 20 mm MG 151 cannon and two 20 mm MG 151 cannons and two 13 mm (.51 in) MG 131 machine guns in wings. It had an estimated maximum speed of 649 km/h (403 mph).

Detail design of the Me 155 was complete by Sept 1942. However, the numerous delays in the Graf Zeppelin seemed to indicate that the completion of the carrier would be at least two years away. Messerschmitt was told to shelve the Me 155 project for the indefinite future. Work on the Graf Zeppelin carrier was eventually abandoned.
Hmmm...It does not look like I meant the Bv-155 at all.

Phaing wrote:One carrier is an overwhelming advantage? The Graf must be more formidable than I thought... :lol:

Although I have to admit, the Fi-167 is an amazing aircraft, its like a Storch on steroids!

Look, if you want to add swarms of Hurricanes wherever you want then to pop up, the start arguing with the guy that started this thread, the one that wants to change the ENTIRE GERMAN WAR EFFORT, and focus it solely on the Defeat of the UK.
You two guys should have fun with that, starting with the restructuring of the production schedules of the nations involved, and I do mean every item. More Hurricanes mean less of something else, and so on.
That's why I'm following the KISS system here, I just don't have the time to re-order all the material resources of two great nations.
Do you guys?
We have not discussed the merits of the Graf Zeppelin as a combat system, but it does give the Germans the possibility of air support that they would otherwise not have. IIRC, you, yourself, stated that this was not doable without the Graf Zeppelin. So, obviously you already believe that the German carrier is an "overwhelming advantage".

WRT to the Hurricanes going to Iceland...How are you figuring that this requires "restructuring of the production schedules of the nations involved"? The Hurricanes had already been produced, and were moved to Iceland historically in early June 1941. No material restructuring is needed at all. It sounds more like you are crying "foul", because it would probably mean the collapse of your whole ill-conceived naval venture against Iceland.

Phaing wrote: Retake what?
The entire purpose here is to win the battle of the Atlantic before the US entry into the war by taking Iceland down. It would make a nice U-Boat base, but the real purpose is to Deny the air & naval refueling facility to the RN. You want to go eyes-deep in the minutiae, lets get into that little item.
IMHO, it is crucial to the most important theater of war in all of WW2.
Frankly, if taken at all, Iceland would only be denied to the British for a few months. Hardly a great window of opportunity. Not to mention, that Britain was not that close to collapse anyway.

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Re: German Invasion of Iceland June 1941

#202

Post by Sid Guttridge » 13 Aug 2015, 13:45

Hi Phaing,

How the British would have relished any such German move, against which they had prepared. Why else had they sent an entire division to Iceland and built an airfield there even when their home islands were under threat?

They couldn't do much against the Germans on the continent, but they would have relished the opportunity to lop off any such German forlorn-hope expedition into the North Atlantic.

The British badly needed a morale boosting victory again the Germans in 1940-41, and you are doing your best to arrange the optimum circumstances to give them one.

The German general staff described such operations as "Island Madness" and even Hitler at the height of his success didn't take the risk. Surely there is a lesson to be drawn from the fact that neither the German military, nor political leadership were prepared to risk such an operation?

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: German Invasion of Iceland June 1941

#203

Post by Kingfish » 13 Aug 2015, 16:39

Phaing wrote:Chronologically, I have to start with the Shetlands.
This one really is a mess, poke away if you like, but I do see value here, because it is the only one where land-based aircraft from Norway can take part.
It would be asinine to try to hold it, even for a day.
Which begs the obvious question: what exactly is the gain here?

Shutting down Sumburgh for a couple of days will not achieve anything, since both Iceland and Faroes (assuming both are captured) will take many weeks/months before either can contribute to the goals stated in this WI.
The gods do not deduct from a man's allotted span the hours spent in fishing.
~Babylonian Proverb

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Re: German Invasion of Iceland June 1941

#204

Post by Phaing » 13 Aug 2015, 18:48

Takao wrote: We have not discussed the merits of the Graf Zeppelin as a combat system, but it does give the Germans the possibility of air support that they would otherwise not have. IIRC, you, yourself, stated that this was not doable without the Graf Zeppelin. So, obviously you already believe that the German carrier is an "overwhelming advantage".

WRT to the Hurricanes going to Iceland...How are you figuring that this requires "restructuring of the production schedules of the nations involved"? The Hurricanes had already been produced, and were moved to Iceland historically in early June 1941. No material restructuring is needed at all. It sounds more like you are crying "foul", because it would probably mean the collapse of your whole ill-conceived naval venture against Iceland.

Phaing wrote: Retake what?
The entire purpose here is to win the battle of the Atlantic before the US entry into the war by taking Iceland down. It would make a nice U-Boat base, but the real purpose is to Deny the air & naval refueling facility to the RN. You want to go eyes-deep in the minutiae, lets get into that little item.
IMHO, it is crucial to the most important theater of war in all of WW2.
Frankly, if taken at all, Iceland would only be denied to the British for a few months. Hardly a great window of opportunity. Not to mention, that Britain was not that close to collapse anyway.
Hurricanes in Iceland, fine, whatever. You can't stop reaching for Early June even if I have repeatedly said May 25th but I want Lutzow so fine, you have Hurricanes. How many, exactly? They will be up against the Me-109T, equivalent to the Bf-109 E-4.
Whoops.

I have to wonder if Kingfish is the one and only guy here that has been reading this entire thread.
I started out being against this, and said that w/o the Graf and half a dozen Milch Cow subs it could not possibly happen. And then we took it from there.

And I have persisted because of the mockery and disrespect that you among others have been throwing my way.
I have been plotting and acting within some pretty stringent limitations, including self-imposed ones that make me unique here in this thread, and yet you persist in talking to me as if I'm some pie-in-the-sky loon. Its as if I wanted to have Scharnhorst and Gniesenau take some magical cruise out of Brest to join the fun at just the right time.
I'm not reaching for the moon here, I'm trying to exploit resources that were actually there in an imaginative way. Period.

Remember that old war game War at Sea?
Every try playing it without the Graf?
Might as well not.

Iceland would only last a few months in German hands? Well, that's all it would take, in 3-4 months the weather deteriorates to the point where amphibious landings are no longer feasible. And in those months, your going to get a 2nd Happy Time that will dwarf the first one.

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Re: German Invasion of Iceland June 1941

#205

Post by Phaing » 13 Aug 2015, 19:04

Kingfish wrote:
Phaing wrote:Chronologically, I have to start with the Shetlands.
This one really is a mess, poke away if you like, but I do see value here, because it is the only one where land-based aircraft from Norway can take part.
It would be asinine to try to hold it, even for a day.
Which begs the obvious question: what exactly is the gain here?

Shutting down Sumburgh for a couple of days will not achieve anything, since both Iceland and Faroes (assuming both are captured) will take many weeks/months before either can contribute to the goals stated in this WI.
Actually, shutting that airfield down for these critical days would be a very nice bonus, but that's not really the point.

To use a later phrase, Shock & Awe.
To use the phrase of the say; Schrecklitchkiet.... forgive the spelling, shooting for the German word for frightfulness there.

IIRC, the Admiralty is being run by the same old fart that panicked and had convoy PQ-17 scatter and basically threw it to the wolves. How do you think he will react to this triple-play.... I think they call it a Hat-trick over there.
And the real fun is laying that minefield for anyone that comes charging out of Scapa, it will give anyone thinking of an immediate reaction to the other landings something to think twice about. And recall how incredible it would have seemed in 1941... tanks on the Shetlands? Oh, they must be there to stay, and it will take days to sort this out and convince themsevles that it really was just a raid.

Its really just a matter of using things that would be no help elsewhere, and above all - to induce fear among the unflappable British.
More follows...

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Re: German Invasion of Iceland June 1941

#206

Post by Phaing » 13 Aug 2015, 19:24

Sid Guttridge wrote:Hi Phaing,

How the British would have relished any such German move, against which they had prepared. Why else had they sent an entire division to Iceland and built an airfield there even when their home islands were under threat?

They couldn't do much against the Germans on the continent, but they would have relished the opportunity to lop off any such German forlorn-hope expedition into the North Atlantic.

The British badly needed a morale boosting victory again the Germans in 1940-41, and you are doing your best to arrange the optimum circumstances to give them one.

The German general staff described such operations as "Island Madness" and even Hitler at the height of his success didn't take the risk. Surely there is a lesson to be drawn from the fact that neither the German military, nor political leadership were prepared to risk such an operation?

Cheers,

Sid.
Howdy.

Yes, we have gone over that earlier, but its getting to be a long thread, isn't it?

IMHO, the goal of Germany was to force the UK to the peace-table and end this war so they could go on to Russia, or maybe go build the world's biggest Sportzplast or whatever. :roll:

Consider the situation in late May of 1941; Britain has been going it alone for almost a year now, and it's not going well. Their newest ally, Yugoslavia, was over-run in a matter of days. Greece has just gone the same way, and Crete is being overwhelmed while the RN is taking serious losses just trying to support the scratch-force trying to hold that island.

Iceland could have been the issue that tipped the scales, both psychologically and operationally. How could the RN refuel the escorts for Convoys going back and forth to North America without it?


Lets look at the reverse; The German victory at Norway was tremendously important in the long run, strategically. Try to imagine what the war would have been like for Germany if Britain had taken Norway instead, which was the intention. I think that would have turned the whole war into a nightmare for Germany and ended it years ahead of time. RAF Bombers coming out of Oslo from mid-1940, MTBs operating off Denmark and north Germany, no Swedish iron ore in the winter... I can't even guess at all the complications.
Iceland would be like that for the UK, and it could have happened at exactly the wrong time.

Cheers.

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Re: German Invasion of Iceland June 1941

#207

Post by Kingfish » 13 Aug 2015, 19:59

Phaing wrote:Its really just a matter of using things that would be no help elsewhere, and above all - to induce fear among the unflappable British.
More follows...
If you really want to induce fear in the British you rout its army off the continent and then begin amassing your own for a cross-channel invasion.

But wait, that happened historically...and the Brits were not shaken.

Want to put those invasion fears to rest?

Commit the bulk of the KM to supplying a series of isolated outpost in the Atlantic, none of which can be used in an offensive manner for many months, and without a major investment in men/materials.
The gods do not deduct from a man's allotted span the hours spent in fishing.
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Re: German Invasion of Iceland June 1941

#208

Post by SpicyJuan » 13 Aug 2015, 21:33

Phaing wrote:
SpicyJuan wrote: Greenhill is a publisher that prints alternate history collections of alternate histories and POD's which are a little less on the counter-factual side, but really fun to read, and are typically very interesting.
Oh, okay, sounds interesting.
So it's not a Game company, but short stories? I should have a look..... just as long as that guy Turtledove has nothing to do with it! :?
It does not. Peter G. Tsouras frequently writes in them though (and even edits them), and I have Third Reich Victorious, and I highly recommend it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenhill ... _Decisions

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Re: German Invasion of Iceland June 1941

#209

Post by Phaing » 13 Aug 2015, 22:00

Kingfish wrote: Commit the bulk of the KM to supplying a series of isolated outpost in the Atlantic, none of which can be used in an offensive manner for many months, and without a major investment in men/materials.

I just spelled out how it could be the clincher in the Battle of the Atlantic. That's not good enough?
SpicyJuan wrote:
Phaing wrote:
SpicyJuan wrote: Greenhill is a publisher that prints alternate history collections of alternate histories and POD's which are a little less on the counter-factual side, but really fun to read, and are typically very interesting.
Oh, okay, sounds interesting.
So it's not a Game company, but short stories? I should have a look..... just as long as that guy Turtledove has nothing to do with it! :?
It does not. Peter G. Tsouras frequently writes in them though (and even edits them), and I have Third Reich Victorious, and I highly recommend it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenhill ... _Decisions
Yes, I know Tsouras, I have his book Rising Sun Victorious, and there is some good stuff there.
Thanks again. :D

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Re: German Invasion of Iceland June 1941

#210

Post by SpicyJuan » 13 Aug 2015, 22:26

Phaing wrote: Yes, I know Tsouras, I have his book Rising Sun Victorious, and there is some good stuff there.
Thanks again. :D
Aha! So you do have a Greenhill book :D I do recommend Tsouras's own work such as
Disaster at Stalingrad
and even
Disaster at D-Day
, although I found the latter a little slow and hard to read because of the lack of maps. But do you agree with my assessment of Greenhill books?

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