Germans get a decent HEAT shell by 1942

[stg 44]

Again not anticipating a war winner here.
With that caveat out of the way, historically by the end of the war the Germans were demoing a HEAT shell that could be fired from a 75mm rifled barrel that cancelled out the spin of the rifling using roller bearings and jack knife fins. It was not too complicated and would enable a 75mm L48 to penetrate a IS2 at maximum range (1.8km for the KwK40). A spun HEAT shell would be somewhat inaccurate from the construction and dissipate the HEAT effect by dispersing the impact. Had someone come up with the idea it would have easily been put into mass production and not required the litany of heavy and insane gun projects that appeared late war, plus it would make the Panther a fair bit lighter without having to have the long 75mm gun to get sufficient armor penetration. Plus of course it would keep the Panzer IV effective even late war, along with the PAK 40 and Hetzer.

Had such a shell been in production along with the introduction of the L48 75mm in 1942 what effect would it have had on the fighting in the East, as things like the Panther instead could stay around 40 tons or less with a lighter gun (also a better turret that was less heavy and had less recoil mechanisms), carry more shells, and be able to fire more rapidly (the high velocity 75 required a cool down between firing). Without all the effort put into things like the high velocity 75 and 88 they could keep using existing guns mass produced (no PAK 43 or L71 88 tank gun) rather than going insane on the upgunning and dealing with weight issues. The 88mm gun of the Tiger with that shell design could effectively hit targets out to 2km or more and get even better penetration than the 75 due to bigger shell with better HEAT effect.

How do the Soviets respond to the generic German 75mm and 88mm shells being that effective against all targets through to the end of the war?

[SpicyJuan]

Probably not much at all as the shell itself since the 75mm guns could take out pretty much everything the Allies had at the end of the war anyways with the exception of the IS-2, but then you still have the 88. If it was around for by the time of the Panther it could have a huge impact. By Giving the Panther the shorter 75 would significantly cut down the weight and would greatly help the automotive issues it had historically. It would also mean that the Panther would have a decent HE shell (the heat shell on the longer one was not as good). Overall, a much better tank.

[Kingfish]

How do the Soviets respond to the generic German 75mm and 88mm shells being that effective against all targets through to the end of the war?

The same way it responded to all the other German technological advancements made in the war - out number & out fight them.

For the most part the Germans enjoyed a technological edge over their Russian (and allied) counterparts, yet at the end of the day it was the Red Banner flying over the Riechstag.

[thaddeus_c]

very interesting. what gun projects are referenced? just switching to heavier guns? or you including PAW 600 from earlier thread http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 1&t=213283 and other weapons as projects that (might) have been avoided?

it does seem a more logical and cost-effective (LOL) upgrade to develop more effective shells.

[stg 44]

No, not the PAW, its just using the standard KwK40 and really any caliber of standard cannon

[thaddeus_c]

No, not the PAW, its just using the standard KwK40 and really any caliber of standard cannon

sorry if I was not clear, meant which projects NOT occurring if an effective HEAT shell WAS produced?

(attempting to grasp the wartime development cycle, thanks for any info)

[stg 44]

The historical less effective HEAT shells. Germany had HEAT shells since 1940 they just weren't as effective as the ones that they had in development at the end of the war. In this scenario they get them into production years earlier because the hit on the right concept early.

[toque]

I do wonder about late 1941to early 1942 on the Eastern Front. It is possible that adequate numbers of effective HEAT rounds and the guns to fire them might just have tipped the balance. Soviet tank production was not fully mobilised and the T-34 was by no means as numerous as it was later to become.

After that point, I doubt that it would have made much difference.

[Cult Icon]

The strategic/operational impact of improved AT guns/armor refitting the existing system is extremely exaggerated IMHO in analysis of the war.

What is more important is the infantry and its quantity/quality (mobility, logistics, training) will easily offset the gun/armor inferiority of the armored forces .

[thaddeus_c]

any ideas on how this would affect AFV production? seems like the late war suggestion for more anti-tank guns might occur early?

[stg 44]

any ideas on how this would affect AFV production? seems like the late war suggestion for more anti-tank guns might occur early?

You'd probably get more PAK40s for every PAK43 made due to the weight of material and economies of scale, but get the same penetration effect.

[Christian Ankerstjerne]

German anti-tank gun crews generally disliked shaped charge ammunition because of the inferior accuracy compared to conventional armor piercing ammunition, even though the penetration capability of the shaped charge ammunition was better. For example, if the range to the target was misjudged by five percent, the chance to hit at target at a distance of 1500 meters with the 7,5 cm Gr. 38 Hl/B fired from the 7,5 cm Pak 40 was only five percent even without taking into account the effect of combat stress. Expecting kills at a range of 1800 meters therefore seems highly opmitistic, regardless of the ammunition type.

[stg 44]

German anti-tank gun crews generally disliked shaped charge ammunition because of the inferior accuracy compared to conventional armor piercing ammunition, even though the penetration capability of the shaped charge ammunition was better. For example, if the range to the target was misjudged by five percent, the chance to hit at target at a distance of 1500 meters with the 7,5 cm Gr. 38 Hl/B fired from the 7,5 cm Pak 40 was only five percent even without taking into account the effect of combat stress. Expecting kills at a range of 1800 meters therefore seems highly opmitistic, regardless of the ammunition type.

Yes, because they were mixing rifled barrels with finned HEAT ammo, which causes issues. The 1945 shell had roller bearings that cancelled out the spin when the fins deployed and were quite accurate like modern HEAT ammo using smoothbore barrels.

[Christian Ankerstjerne]

The German gun-fired shaped charge ammunition (except for the Stielgranate) didn't have fins:

http://kvh5rgt.cz/kvh-lah/nase-technika/

[stg 44]

Well then, that was the problem. The 1945 one I've see had jack fins.