KM S-boat fleet ready at start of WWII?

[JAG13]

Well not quite, the 5 CA came from the original plan 1932 with 1 *CV + 6 Panzerschiffe & 6 CL . When Raeder convinced Hitler to complete these warships but to an anti French fleet. The 6 Panzerschiffe DEFGHJ became the battleships Sch/Gn/ Bis/Tirp plus the battleships H &J. Meanwhile the 6 light cruisers became the 5 Hipper cruisers + CV plus the original CV.


BTW removing Hitler's meddling in KM, would seem to be A minimum gateway to any alternative KM fleet.

The CAs were not from 1932, they were a byproduct of the AGNA, no AGNA no CAs.

I think that no Hitler meddling would mean a continuation of the original plans, Panzerschiffe galore and maybe CVs.

But that requires a MAJOR shift on Hitler's thinking since he linked the KM to his Britain policy.

[JAG13]

A point that I forgot, the WNT limited the UK to 135.000t of carriers, which meant 47.250t of carriers for the KM, that is 2x23.500t or 3x16.000t (plus some cheating, make them 18.000-19.000t), the best course in my opinion would be 3 Zoryüs (Germanized Soryus XD ), add the wing folded German aircraft and you can cram 70+ aircraft in each.

Doubling the number of carriers demands no AGNA and a likely earlier and larger response by the RN, it would kill the WNT and LNT on its cradle since it would no longer be viable for the RN to limit itself to 6 x 23.000t = 138.000t carriers as per the WNT, they would have to reply in kind and earlier than historical. It would be a clear challenge, a clear threat, and that would upset Hitler's plan to avoid a war until later.

I just dont see it to be viable.

[Paul Lakowski]

Again treaties only matter to Hitler and his hopes for RN /EMPIRE. Any alternative has to assume Hitler does not meddle . As I already pointed out all major warships ordered -including the CA- where Raeder adjusting the NAVAL PLAN 1932 to anti French POV that Hitler accepts. In justifying each ship to Hitler ; Raeder had to order better ships than French counterpart to maximize his fleet. Remember Raeder believed Hitler when he claimed war with RN would not happen until late 1940s so he always thought he had more time!

[JAG13]

The problem is, how can he not? The KM was a secondary tool for him, something that could be traded for a better relation with Britain and so he did, had he gave it even less importance the KM would have been limited to a coastal force and used the allocated resources elsewhere, had he given the KM more attention then he would meddle even more, he wouldnt just write a blank cheque to Raeder.

And as a I pointed out, the lack of a naval understanding with Britain would mean a very different international scenario pushing the world into a likely earlier weapons race deleting Germany's lead, and that could very well mean war at Munich and a quick end for Hitler and Nazi Germany...

You would need a naval Goring...

[T. A. Gardner]

A point that I forgot, the WNT limited the UK to 135.000t of carriers, which meant 47.250t of carriers for the KM, that is 2x23.500t or 3x16.000t (plus some cheating, make them 18.000-19.000t), the best course in my opinion would be 3 Zoryüs (Germanized Soryus XD ), add the wing folded German aircraft and you can cram 70+ aircraft in each.

Doubling the number of carriers demands no AGNA and a likely earlier and larger response by the RN, it would kill the WNT and LNT on its cradle since it would no longer be viable for the RN to limit itself to 6 x 23.000t = 138.000t carriers as per the WNT, they would have to reply in kind and earlier than historical. It would be a clear challenge, a clear threat, and that would upset Hitler's plan to avoid a war until later.

I just dont see it to be viable.

If Germany embarked on this path they could have negotiated a different deal. Say, they agree to not build battleships if the British will allow them equal carrier tonnage. In the mid 30's the RN might well agree to that. "We'll have parity in carriers and a huge battleship advantage..."
Or, the Germans build the first three, laying down two more in secret with the intent to launch by 1940 and starting a third a year or so later.
Even having just 4 of 6 available with say 60 planes each (of modern design) gives the Germans a huge advantage over the RN and the polyglot of obsolete and obsolescent types they're using in small numbers.
After all, at the start of the war they have just 5 carriers in home waters and of those three are pretty small (the three Furious class) and none have a full air wing. What planes they do have include the Sea Gladiator (obsolete), Skua (obsolescent as a dive bomber, useless as a fighter), Roc (useless turret fighter), and Swordfish (obsolescent torpedo plane).
If against that the Germans are flying a navalized version of the He 112 fighter (to keep the Luftwaffe happy with not cutting into Me 109 production), a He 70 / 118 variant that is a torpedo bomber, and the Ju 87 dive bomber they have the means to deal a serious blow to any RN battle group they encounter.
The RN would be scrambling to find aircraft to match what the Germans are fielding. That really comes down to buying US. The Germans could buy Japanese if they really wanted to...

Another nasty would be to contract with a Japanese yard to build one carrier for Germany there. Importing the machinery is possible along with providing the technical expertise and manpower to do things the way the Germans would like.

[JAG13]

I dont know if the British would have allowed for that, after all, they were the ones that came up and insisted that tonnage be calculated based on ship types in order to prevent an unbalanced KM, say Uboat or PS heavy, that would pose a bigger problem than a simple and small balanced fleet. Although I do think they could have gotten something slightly better, say 25% of the tonnage type bound, the remaining 10% free, leaving around 40.000t to be distributed as seen fit.

What I think they could get without much trouble would be to match the 60.000t French and Italian carrier allowance, so they can get 3 x 20.000t, or 4 x 15.000t (17.000t cheating, so basically Hiryu sized), although getting 4 hulls might spook the RN/RAF (and the MN) into doing something about it in the FAA department (maybe the wing-folding Hurricane is greenlit?).

The 109 problem was the engine, there were few DB 601s to go around so it wouldnt matter if it was a 109 or 112 since both used the same engine. The Fi-167 was a great carrier aircraft and could have taken over both dive and torpedo bombing if need be, but it also has that DB 601 problem.

I dont know if the FAA could have gotten the F4F, for example, sooner than they actually did, didnt they get them even before the USN?

In order to get ready in time the KM would need to depend on the IJN for design input and training, but I dont know if they could have gone as far as buying a Japanese carrier, especially with foreign currency being an issue for Nazi Germany, maybe an officer exchange program?

[Paul Lakowski]

Hitler's phantasy over RN & EMPIRE high light just how far out his thinking was. The main guiding principle for the Wehrmacht -from 1928 on - was the document "Tasks for the Wehrmacht" written by defence minister Groner.

This had several critical threads, the most important being the appointment of a military leader as commander in chief of all the forces to best enact any combined military strategy .

The next major thread was Groner's warning that any German military action has to assume an out break into a larger European war and has to have a 'reasonable chance of winning this larger European war'. so defence in depth had to take priority over defence in breadth.

Finally any German rearmament has to acknowledge that Germanys neighbours would not sit ideally by and just let rearm. any attention to treaties would be minor.

[T. A. Gardner]

4 hulls might spook the RN/RAF (and the MN) into doing something about it in the FAA department (maybe the wing-folding Hurricane is greenlit?).

Maybe, but unlikely. The RAF was stretched thin with it's own expansion in the late 30's. That's a major reason the FAA became largely equipped with US aircraft during WW 2.

The 109 problem was the engine, there were few DB 601s to go around so it wouldnt matter if it was a 109 or 112 since both used the same engine. The Fi-167 was a great carrier aircraft and could have taken over both dive and torpedo bombing if need be, but it also has that DB 601 problem.

The 109 would have had serious landing gear issues. It also has a very poor view on take off. It's tendency to swing during take off is another issue. All-in-all it would have made a poor carrier plane. The Fi-167 is great at low speeds, just what it doesn't need. The KM would need a higher speed attack plane with better defensive armament. A variant of the He 70 / 118 would work good. A He 70 is about the same size and weight as the Nakajima B5N so it should be possible to build a variant that pretty closely matches it in performance.
If these were using the Jumo 210/ 11/ 13 engine it puts no strain on the supply of DB 601's. Aside from that, unlike land based aircraft naval aircraft only need to be capable of operating to about 20,000 feet. This also means all aircraft aboard the ship use the same engine. That is a big maintenance advantage.
Since historically Henkel built about 100 He 112 fighters anyway, this would have been most of the KM's required numbers for initial equipment in fighters. Junkers could easily supply the required Ju 87 leaving only the Henkel attack plane as an outstanding requirement.

I dont know if the FAA could have gotten the F4F, for example, sooner than they actually did, didnt they get them even before the USN?

In order to get ready in time the KM would need to depend on the IJN for design input and training, but I dont know if they could have gone as far as buying a Japanese carrier, especially with foreign currency being an issue for Nazi Germany, maybe an officer exchange program?

Actually, Grumman started supplying the French the F4F in 1939, most of that order ending up in British FAA service. So, it is entirely possible that the British could get F4F by mid to late 1940. The Fairey Fulmar first flew in Jan 1940 so it too would become available by mid to late 1940. The problem with it is that it really isn't fully capable of taking on a single seat fighter like the He 112.

[JAG13]

The 109 problem was the engine, there were few DB 601s to go around so it wouldnt matter if it was a 109 or 112 since both used the same engine. The Fi-167 was a great carrier aircraft and could have taken over both dive and torpedo bombing if need be, but it also has that DB 601 problem.

The 109 would have had serious landing gear issues. It also has a very poor view on take off. It's tendency to swing during take off is another issue. All-in-all it would have made a poor carrier plane. The Fi-167 is great at low speeds, just what it doesn't need. The KM would need a higher speed attack plane with better defensive armament. A variant of the He 70 / 118 would work good. A He 70 is about the same size and weight as the Nakajima B5N so it should be possible to build a variant that pretty closely matches it in performance.
If these were using the Jumo 210/ 11/ 13 engine it puts no strain on the supply of DB 601's. Aside from that, unlike land based aircraft naval aircraft only need to be capable of operating to about 20,000 feet. This also means all aircraft aboard the ship use the same engine. That is a big maintenance advantage.
Since historically Henkel built about 100 He 112 fighters anyway, this would have been most of the KM's required numbers for initial equipment in fighters. Junkers could easily supply the required Ju 87 leaving only the Henkel attack plane as an outstanding requirement.

The 109T version saw a 2 year development, the landing gear was strengthened and widened (it was already wider than the F4F for starters) in addition to a larger folding wing, flaps and wing spoilers, it was not an improvised aircraft like the Seafire. The 109 was intended for catapult launches mainly, and if what I read is accurate, the Finns had little trouble with the 109 once they learned their quirks and how to prevent them (aka only lifting the tail once fast enough), somehow the Germans kept having issues with them and I have to guess it was due to training, something similar would happens years later with the F-104, a tricky and suspect fighter, but in the Luftwaffe it was a killer with 100+ deaths in accidents... until they had a hard look at basic training and most of the troubles ended.

The 109T would also benefit from the regular 109 evolution and progression, but I see how a 112 alternative would make sense in a Goring-less world.

The reason why I like the 167 is its versatility, it could do both attack jobs simplifying maintenance and even having engine commonality with the fighter, plus that is an aircraft that you could use confidently in bad weather and was as fast as the 87C. Otherwise the 87 NEEDED the catapult at full load, it couldnt take off by itself at full power because the nose would dig itself into the deck. The 118 was structurally suspect and surprisingly it wasnt faster than the Stuka in spite of its stronger engine (seen contradictory info here, it may be suitable if properly redesigned for a dual role).

I dont know if the FAA could have gotten the F4F, for example, sooner than they actually did, didnt they get them even before the USN?

In order to get ready in time the KM would need to depend on the IJN for design input and training, but I dont know if they could have gone as far as buying a Japanese carrier, especially with foreign currency being an issue for Nazi Germany, maybe an officer exchange program?

Actually, Grumman started supplying the French the F4F in 1939, most of that order ending up in British FAA service. So, it is entirely possible that the British could get F4F by mid to late 1940. The Fairey Fulmar first flew in Jan 1940 so it too would become available by mid to late 1940. The problem with it is that it really isn't fully capable of taking on a single seat fighter like the He 112.

Sounds fair. When did the SBD become available?

[JAG13]

Apparently Heinkel did build a carrier version of the 112, but I lack any details on it. Anyone?

[JAG13]

Forgot to add the main advantage of a Fi-167, you could spot a lot more on a deck given its STOL qualities, thus allowing for a larger strike.

[Paul Lakowski]

If Germans were smart they would have employed Fi-167 as STOL plane for surface raiders in place of sea planes. KM found they could only use such sea planes one day out of five days, so they were not very useful. This was due to landing conditions that need sea state of less than a meter SWH. If it were only down to weather STOL could probably manage flights any time FAA could fly. Rear superstructure would have to be fashioned into a landing deck of 20 x 40m or soooo for it to work.

[JAG13]

Mmmmhhh... the problem is that the forward superstructure would cause turbulence over the flight deck at speed, and on the other hand a flat top raider would give he game away...

Tethered helicopter maybe?

Regular ones werent really available until 1942 IIRC.

[thaddeus_c]

Mmmmhhh... the problem is that the forward superstructure would cause turbulence over the flight deck at speed, and on the other hand a flat top raider would give he game away...

Tethered helicopter maybe?

Regular ones werent really available until 1942 IIRC.

detailed article on development of Flettner http://www.aviastar.org/helicopters_eng ... olibri.php

the other one that was developed Focke-Angelis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focke-Achgelis_Fa_223

"The Fa 226 attracted the attention of the Air Ministry, who redesignated it Fa 223 in 1939 before the first prototype flew.[7] The Navy was also interested in the Hornisse and briefly considered it as a replacement for their Schnellboote."

[T. A. Gardner]

Now, to partially get back to the OP idea...

You could build a raider that could make more use of something like a float version of the Fi 167 or other larger float aircraft along with S-boote to cover more ground operationally and tactically. That would be to have constructed large surface raider ships with a stern well deck. This would provide a place for the S-boote to launch and dock from. A shipboard crane could lift them onto the ship's deck etc., for storage when not to be used.
The same with float planes. You have a plane with powered folding wings that can simply taxi into the well for landings. A transom stern and turning the ship into the sea would reduce wave height in its wake making a much wider range of sea states possible for landings.
Take offs could be by launching out of the well or by catapult.
Even small flying boats could be carried.