What If instead of Bf110, Fw187 AND Hs124?

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stg 44
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What If instead of Bf110, Fw187 AND Hs124?

#1

Post by stg 44 » 10 Aug 2015, 00:39

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focke-Wulf_Fw_187
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henschel_Hs_124
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Bf_110

So what if instead of trying to go for the Bf110 as the only aircraft for the 'destroyer' role they opted to split it up into a light bomber/strafer/ground attack/recon/night fighter in the Hs124 and a long range escort fight in the Fw187? The Bf110 was a jack of all trades, master of none, while something like the Hs124 would have stayed relevant as a night fighter and light bomber (with engine upgrades) for the whole war, while the Fw187 could have done the same as a long range fighter and daylight bomber interceptor, preventing the need for the problematic Me210/410 that ended up costing the Luftwaffe an estimated 2000 aircraft from 1941-43.

Early on you could have the Hs124 as a light bomber replacing some of the Ju88's roles, especially the Ju88C, and some recon versions, which would make up for the needed resources to produce it; it would also pretty much replace the Do17 in all its roles from 1937 on. There would be virtually nothing the Do17/215 could do that the Hs124 couldn't do better and probably use the same engines to achieve higher speed and range, though with lower payload. The He111 and Ju88 could then do the 'heavy' bombing. The Fw187 then would be freed up to be a bomber interceptor during the day and long range escort/air superiority fighter. In the long run it ends up saving a lot of resources from having to switch over to the Me410 when it becomes ready in 1943 and avoids having to go through the Me210 fiasco, while the Bf110 doesn't get wasted during the BoB, which the Fw187 could fight far more effectively, while the Hs124 could strafe and bomb like the fighter-bomber version of the Bf110, but better, as it had an internal bomb bay, greater range by far (same with the Fw187 over the Bf110), and mount heavier fire power in its nose. As a night fighter it would be able to do better than the Do215 and have more stretch than the Bf110. It could do all the work of the Do215, Ju88C, and Bf110/Me210/Me410, and perhaps even what the Ju88G did later. Thoughts?

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Re: What If instead of Bf110, Fw187 AND Hs124?

#2

Post by SpicyJuan » 11 Aug 2015, 00:24

If you get the Luftwaffe High Command to not be so incompetent it sounds like a war winner to me.


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Re: What If instead of Bf110, Fw187 AND Hs124?

#3

Post by General91 » 10 Jul 2016, 06:09

stg 44 wrote:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focke-Wulf_Fw_187
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henschel_Hs_124
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Bf_110

So what if instead of trying to go for the Bf110 as the only aircraft for the 'destroyer' role they opted to split it up into a light bomber/strafer/ground attack/recon/night fighter in the Hs124 and a long range escort fight in the Fw187? The Bf110 was a jack of all trades, master of none, while something like the Hs124 would have stayed relevant as a night fighter and light bomber (with engine upgrades) for the whole war, while the Fw187 could have done the same as a long range fighter and daylight bomber interceptor, preventing the need for the problematic Me210/410 that ended up costing the Luftwaffe an estimated 2000 aircraft from 1941-43.

Early on you could have the Hs124 as a light bomber replacing some of the Ju88's roles, especially the Ju88C, and some recon versions, which would make up for the needed resources to produce it; it would also pretty much replace the Do17 in all its roles from 1937 on. There would be virtually nothing the Do17/215 could do that the Hs124 couldn't do better and probably use the same engines to achieve higher speed and range, though with lower payload. The He111 and Ju88 could then do the 'heavy' bombing. The Fw187 then would be freed up to be a bomber interceptor during the day and long range escort/air superiority fighter. In the long run it ends up saving a lot of resources from having to switch over to the Me410 when it becomes ready in 1943 and avoids having to go through the Me210 fiasco, while the Bf110 doesn't get wasted during the BoB, which the Fw187 could fight far more effectively, while the Hs124 could strafe and bomb like the fighter-bomber version of the Bf110, but better, as it had an internal bomb bay, greater range by far (same with the Fw187 over the Bf110), and mount heavier fire power in its nose. As a night fighter it would be able to do better than the Do215 and have more stretch than the Bf110. It could do all the work of the Do215, Ju88C, and Bf110/Me210/Me410, and perhaps even what the Ju88G did later. Thoughts?

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Hey STG 44,

Very cool post. I like the FW187 a lot, and never knew much about the HS124 until now. I really like your ideas here, I think it could be a lot more effective. I have always been split on the Bf110 myself. The major detractor for me is that is was to easy to get shot up by single engine fighters and die en mass without achieving much of anything. However I have a few questions/concerns:

First, could the FW187 be an effective long range escort/air superiority fighter it self though? I understand it is lighter and cheaper than the BF110, and overall its performance in terms of aerial agility seems superior, but is that enough? While compared to the BF109 the FW187 was 50mph faster, had twice the range, and equal if not better dive/climb rates, there was skepticism about its maneuverability. This was perhaps as a result of it being twice the weight and overall larger than a BF109. Could a FW187 roll and turn sufficiently in a dogfight to have a chance against yaks, hurricanes, spitfires, etc? Otherwise we might get the same problem with the BF110, easy kills for allied pilots. As for a bomber interceptor, I like the idea of it a lot, but is it well armored and armed enough to survive such encounters? It is a bigger target with less maneuverability than a FW190 or BF109; all those .50 calls on a B-17 might kill it before it kills the B-17. Further, is its 2 20 mm and 4 7.92mm enough firepower to kill heavy bombers effectively? Any way to increase firepower, perhaps replacing the 7.92mm with 13mm? Also, are we talking about the 1 person FW 187 like Kurt Tank wanted or the two person one the RLM uselessly demanded? Personally, I would rather save the weight, space, and manpower and keep the 1 person version, which might help with some of the problems I pointed out. If the FW187 can maneuver enough to kill fighters like a yak, hurricane, p40, P-38, etc, then by all means it should be produced instead of the B110. If it cant though, then we might as well produce more single engine FW190/BF109 fighters and figure out a way to fit on more/larger fuel tanks on those for better range.

Second, as for the ground attack roll/strafing of the HS124, I just read the extensive posts in the thread "HS123 remains in production" or something like that. Would the HS124 be superior to the other ground attack aircraft like the HS123, HS129, etc? It needs to be well armored and probably need to survive on 1 engine (which the HS129 couldn't do). As for the HS123, it was rugged and simple, albeit the HS 123 wouldn't have the range or payload of this HS124. So again, is the HS124 tough enough to use its range and payload to survive where a HS123 or 129 wouldn't? Would the HS 124 be more effective at CAS than a HS123 or HS129? Would the HS124 be more effective than a JU87D or FW190 F/G pushed into a CAS roll? As for the HS124 use as a recon plane, night fighter, and/or light bomber, I don't see why not. Seems like the HS124 would fulfill these roles quite well. If the H124 isnt rugged enough to survive CAS however, then we might was well just produce more well armored JU 87Ds or far better yet, FW190s Fs or Gs.

Overall if these issues can be addressed, then I think scrapping the BF110 all together and splitting production between the HS124 and FW187 would be extremely beneficial for the Luftwaffe.

I hope I come of as making sense here. I've been up since early working all day, so I am fading bad :D

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Re: What If instead of Bf110, Fw187 AND Hs124?

#4

Post by Sheldrake » 10 Jul 2016, 10:05

The Luftwaffe opted for the me110 because they wanted a heavy long ranged fighter, for the fighter arm to complement the me109 short ranged interceptor forces. They did not think they needed to add bombs to fighters before 1940. They did have a ground attack fighter, the Hs123 and the Ju87 which could deliver precision bombing.

The Hs124 had an inferior performance in almost every to the Ju88 as a heavy fighter/ light bomber. Its a cool looking mediocre aircraft.

The Fw187 was the basis for lots Focke Wulf's bid for aircraft contracts. It offered a twin engined fighter with comparable performance, on paper to the single seat interceptor. The British equivalent was the Westland Whirlwind. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westland_ ... _(fighter) Presumably this could have been the German DH98 or P38? No one will know because the germans did not persevere with the design. The narrow fuselage ias reminiscent of the Hs129 which received some very unfavourable views from test pilots. " a monster"

Two mediocre designs rejected in favour of aircraft which served the Germans well. The problem occured when they tries to build replacements. Me210 etc.

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Re: What If instead of Bf110, Fw187 AND Hs124?

#5

Post by stg 44 » 10 Jul 2016, 14:54

Sheldrake wrote:The Luftwaffe opted for the me110 because they wanted a heavy long ranged fighter, for the fighter arm to complement the me109 short ranged interceptor forces. They did not think they needed to add bombs to fighters before 1940. They did have a ground attack fighter, the Hs123 and the Ju87 which could deliver precision bombing.
The HS123 and Ju87 were not ground attack anything, they were dive bombers. They filled a different role than a light bomber or ground attack aircraft; both were later shoe horned into the role of ground attack, only the Hs123 doing a good job of it for CAS.
Sheldrake wrote: The Hs124 had an inferior performance in almost every to the Ju88 as a heavy fighter/ light bomber. Its a cool looking mediocre aircraft.
The Ju88 was a medium bomber and it's role as a 'heavy fighter' was really only successful as a night fighter. It was a different category of aircraft than the Hs124 and you have apparently mixed up what both were.
Sheldrake wrote: The Fw187 was the basis for lots Focke Wulf's bid for aircraft contracts. It offered a twin engined fighter with comparable performance, on paper to the single seat interceptor. The British equivalent was the Westland Whirlwind. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westland_ ... _(fighter) Presumably this could have been the German DH98 or P38? No one will know because the germans did not persevere with the design. The narrow fuselage ias reminiscent of the Hs129 which received some very unfavourable views from test pilots. " a monster"
The Hs129 and Fw187 were completely different aircraft and the Fw187 got very positive reviews.
Sheldrake wrote: Two mediocre designs rejected in favour of aircraft which served the Germans well. The problem occured when they tries to build replacements. Me210 etc.
I totally disagree in terms of these replacements. Both could do their roles better than the 'universal' Bf110, which was a poor heavy fighter and really only excelled as a light bomber/ground attack aircraft, but then only for the last couple of years of its service when that was realized. It of course did well as a night fighter, but the HS124 could have done the same.

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Re: What If instead of Bf110, Fw187 AND Hs124?

#6

Post by stg 44 » 10 Jul 2016, 15:06

General91 wrote: Hey STG 44,

Very cool post. I like the FW187 a lot, and never knew much about the HS124 until now. I really like your ideas here, I think it could be a lot more effective. I have always been split on the Bf110 myself. The major detractor for me is that is was to easy to get shot up by single engine fighters and die en mass without achieving much of anything. However I have a few questions/concerns:

First, could the FW187 be an effective long range escort/air superiority fighter it self though? I understand it is lighter and cheaper than the BF110, and overall its performance in terms of aerial agility seems superior, but is that enough? While compared to the BF109 the FW187 was 50mph faster, had twice the range, and equal if not better dive/climb rates, there was skepticism about its maneuverability. This was perhaps as a result of it being twice the weight and overall larger than a BF109. Could a FW187 roll and turn sufficiently in a dogfight to have a chance against yaks, hurricanes, spitfires, etc? Otherwise we might get the same problem with the BF110, easy kills for allied pilots. As for a bomber interceptor, I like the idea of it a lot, but is it well armored and armed enough to survive such encounters? It is a bigger target with less maneuverability than a FW190 or BF109; all those .50 calls on a B-17 might kill it before it kills the B-17. Further, is its 2 20 mm and 4 7.92mm enough firepower to kill heavy bombers effectively? Any way to increase firepower, perhaps replacing the 7.92mm with 13mm? Also, are we talking about the 1 person FW 187 like Kurt Tank wanted or the two person one the RLM uselessly demanded? Personally, I would rather save the weight, space, and manpower and keep the 1 person version, which might help with some of the problems I pointed out. If the FW187 can maneuver enough to kill fighters like a yak, hurricane, p40, P-38, etc, then by all means it should be produced instead of the B110. If it cant though, then we might as well produce more single engine FW190/BF109 fighters and figure out a way to fit on more/larger fuel tanks on those for better range.

Second, as for the ground attack roll/strafing of the HS124, I just read the extensive posts in the thread "HS123 remains in production" or something like that. Would the HS124 be superior to the other ground attack aircraft like the HS123, HS129, etc? It needs to be well armored and probably need to survive on 1 engine (which the HS129 couldn't do). As for the HS123, it was rugged and simple, albeit the HS 123 wouldn't have the range or payload of this HS124. So again, is the HS124 tough enough to use its range and payload to survive where a HS123 or 129 wouldn't? Would the HS 124 be more effective at CAS than a HS123 or HS129? Would the HS124 be more effective than a JU87D or FW190 F/G pushed into a CAS roll? As for the HS124 use as a recon plane, night fighter, and/or light bomber, I don't see why not. Seems like the HS124 would fulfill these roles quite well. If the H124 isnt rugged enough to survive CAS however, then we might was well just produce more well armored JU 87Ds or far better yet, FW190s Fs or Gs.

Overall if these issues can be addressed, then I think scrapping the BF110 all together and splitting production between the HS124 and FW187 would be extremely beneficial for the Luftwaffe.

I hope I come of as making sense here. I've been up since early working all day, so I am fading bad :D
I've since changed some of my opinion about the Bf110, it seems to have been quite a good ground attack/light bomber aircraft and was probably not that much worse than the Hs124 would have been. I still think the HS124 could have fulfilled that light bomber/ground attack/night fighter role as well or better than the Bf110. I'm still firmly committed to the Fw187 for the heavy fighter role.

The Fw187 was a superb energy fighter with excellent dive capabilities. That meant it was perfect for boom and zoom tactics, which the US used to counter the Japanese Zero, which could out turn or maneuver any Allied aircraft of the war. But being able to pick and choose when to fight and then disengage was a more useful ability, which the Fw187 had in spades. They could out speed anything in the sky in 1940. By the end of the war it would have serious problems against the P-51, but until 1944 then it would be at least equal to anything in the single engine fighter category. Maneuverability is not that useful in the end, speed and ability to dive away from an unfavorable engagement is, as the history of fighter combat has borne out. The only time maneuverability trumps speed and energy retention is if a pilot opts to get into a 'turn and burn' fight, which everyone learned not to do against and enemy aircraft that can do it better (the Germans vs. the Hurricane, all Allied aircraft vs. the Zero). I'd suggest reading about how the US P-38 handled the Japanese Zero in the Pacific for an idea of how the Fw-187 would operate against the Spitfire or even P-47.

As to the the Hs124 in ground attack, it would fill a different role than the Hs123. The Hs123 was pretty much great for CAS and little else due to it's short legs and limited carrying capacity. The Hs124 would do what the Bf110 ground attack/fighter-bomber did historically: go for deeper targets that the Ju87 and Hs123 couldn't. That means train busting, airfield attacks, hitting supply coloumns, striking units on the march to the battlefield, hitting supply dumps, attacking HQs, etc. What it was not really set up for was CAS. It was too fast and heavy for that, that should be left to the Hs123 and sometimes the Ju87. The Hs124 (and the Bf110 historically) were set up for deeper tactical targets the shorter ranged single engine diver bombers couldn't get to. The Fw190 was fine when it came about for much the same role, which would enable the phasing out of the Hs124 except for the targets that the single engine ground attack aircraft couldn't reach and of course as a night fighter.

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Re: What If instead of Bf110, Fw187 AND Hs124?

#7

Post by General91 » 10 Jul 2016, 19:16

stg 44 wrote: I've since changed some of my opinion about the Bf110, it seems to have been quite a good ground attack/light bomber aircraft and was probably not that much worse than the Hs124 would have been. I still think the HS124 could have fulfilled that light bomber/ground attack/night fighter role as well or better than the Bf110. I'm still firmly committed to the Fw187 for the heavy fighter role.

The Fw187 was a superb energy fighter with excellent dive capabilities. That meant it was perfect for boom and zoom tactics, which the US used to counter the Japanese Zero, which could out turn or maneuver any Allied aircraft of the war. But being able to pick and choose when to fight and then disengage was a more useful ability, which the Fw187 had in spades. They could out speed anything in the sky in 1940. By the end of the war it would have serious problems against the P-51, but until 1944 then it would be at least equal to anything in the single engine fighter category. Maneuverability is not that useful in the end, speed and ability to dive away from an unfavorable engagement is, as the history of fighter combat has borne out. The only time maneuverability trumps speed and energy retention is if a pilot opts to get into a 'turn and burn' fight, which everyone learned not to do against and enemy aircraft that can do it better (the Germans vs. the Hurricane, all Allied aircraft vs. the Zero). I'd suggest reading about how the US P-38 handled the Japanese Zero in the Pacific for an idea of how the Fw-187 would operate against the Spitfire or even P-47.

As to the the Hs124 in ground attack, it would fill a different role than the Hs123. The Hs123 was pretty much great for CAS and little else due to it's short legs and limited carrying capacity. The Hs124 would do what the Bf110 ground attack/fighter-bomber did historically: go for deeper targets that the Ju87 and Hs123 couldn't. That means train busting, airfield attacks, hitting supply coloumns, striking units on the march to the battlefield, hitting supply dumps, attacking HQs, etc. What it was not really set up for was CAS. It was too fast and heavy for that, that should be left to the Hs123 and sometimes the Ju87. The Hs124 (and the Bf110 historically) were set up for deeper tactical targets the shorter ranged single engine diver bombers couldn't get to. The Fw190 was fine when it came about for much the same role, which would enable the phasing out of the Hs124 except for the targets that the single engine ground attack aircraft couldn't reach and of course as a night fighter.
Thanks STG. Well, I think you've addressed my concerns then with both aircraft. Last night I was also considering the boom and zoom tactics, and the P-38s success in the Pacific. I counter balanced that though with the perceived, maybe not failure, but poor battle results in the ETO. So I wasn't sure if the FW187 would be up to the task as a capable long range fighter escort, but I was hoping I was wrong! That said though I think you're right, turning wasn't as important overall as the other tactical options open to the FW187 where it would excel at, such as speed and climb/dive rates. As for the deep strike missions of the HS124, that makes sense. Hit targets other planes cant get to, tear up allied logistics and transportation, etc; meanwhile save the HS 123, HS129, JU87s, and FW190s for CAS/dive bombing along the front.
Sheldrake wrote:The Luftwaffe opted for the me110 because they wanted a heavy long ranged fighter, for the fighter arm to complement the me109 short ranged interceptor forces. They did not think they needed to add bombs to fighters before 1940. They did have a ground attack fighter, the Hs123 and the Ju87 which could deliver precision bombing.
Hey Sheldrake, thank you for commenting. I agree with you that they already had ground attack fighter with the HS123 and a superb dive bomber with the JU87. However, wouldn't the FW187 have performed better in that long ranger fighter role over the BF110? By all accounts the FW187 would have torn a BF110 apart in a fight; a BF110 couldn't outrun, catch, or outmaneuver the FW187. The only thing I don't think the FW187 could match was the BF110s use as a night fighter, and maybe the 187 would not do as well as a ground attack aircraft as the 110 granted, but again, if we are talking purely about the long range fighter aspect, wouldn't the FW187 defeat the BF110?
Sheldrake wrote:The Hs124 had an inferior performance in almost every to the Ju88 as a heavy fighter/ light bomber. Its a cool looking mediocre aircraft.


As STG 44 pointed out, the JU88 was a successful heavy fighter but mostly at night time, at least as far as I know. Plus, the JU 88 was a larger airframe and a medium bomber. Our main comparison is the BF110, and while the HS124 might not be as good, it might be good enough keep in mind to do the job efficiently and effectively. Also about performance, are you comparing it to the BF110 or the JU 88, and is this taking into account the upgrades that could have been implemented on the HS124 over time?
Sheldrake wrote:The Fw187 was the basis for lots Focke Wulf's bid for aircraft contracts. It offered a twin engined fighter with comparable performance, on paper to the single seat interceptor. The British equivalent was the Westland Whirlwind. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westland_ ... _(fighter) Presumably this could have been the German DH98 or P38? No one will know because the germans did not persevere with the design.
I think your right, the FW187 probably would have been the P-38 equivalent had the Germans persevered with the design. And thanks to this "German P-38", there probably would have been not-insignificant repercussions on everything from the battle of France, to the battle of Britain, to the Battle of Crete, to the battle of Russia. A long range air superiority escort fighter could have saved a lot of German bombers and transport aircraft.
Sheldrake wrote:Two mediocre designs rejected in favour of aircraft which served the Germans well. The problem occurred when they tries to build replacements. Me210 etc.


Not sure if I agree with mediocre when it comes to the FW187, but I will certainly agree with you when it comes to the ME210!

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Re: What If instead of Bf110, Fw187 AND Hs124?

#8

Post by stg 44 » 10 Jul 2016, 19:35

General91 wrote: Thanks STG. Well, I think you've addressed my concerns then with both aircraft. Last night I was also considering the boom and zoom tactics, and the P-38s success in the Pacific. I counter balanced that though with the perceived, maybe not failure, but poor battle results in the ETO. So I wasn't sure if the FW187 would be up to the task as a capable long range fighter escort, but I was hoping I was wrong! That said though I think you're right, turning wasn't as important overall as the other tactical options open to the FW187 where it would excel at, such as speed and climb/dive rates. As for the deep strike missions of the HS124, that makes sense. Hit targets other planes cant get to, tear up allied logistics and transportation, etc; meanwhile save the HS 123, HS129, JU87s, and FW190s for CAS/dive bombing along the front.
The P-38 had problems in Europe because it lacked a speed advantage over the German fighters. It had a huge one over the Zero, so was able to actually boom and zoom, not fight an enemy that was as fast or faster AND more maneuverable. By the time the superb L-series was available in Europe D-day was about to happen and the P-51 had already killed the Luftwaffe. Perhaps if it had been available sooner it could have used it's extra speed to do what the P-51 did (which BTW was less maneuverable than the German fighters it faced).

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Re: What If instead of Bf110, Fw187 AND Hs124?

#9

Post by General91 » 11 Jul 2016, 06:22

stg 44 wrote:
General91 wrote: Thanks STG. Well, I think you've addressed my concerns then with both aircraft. Last night I was also considering the boom and zoom tactics, and the P-38s success in the Pacific. I counter balanced that though with the perceived, maybe not failure, but poor battle results in the ETO. So I wasn't sure if the FW187 would be up to the task as a capable long range fighter escort, but I was hoping I was wrong! That said though I think you're right, turning wasn't as important overall as the other tactical options open to the FW187 where it would excel at, such as speed and climb/dive rates. As for the deep strike missions of the HS124, that makes sense. Hit targets other planes cant get to, tear up allied logistics and transportation, etc; meanwhile save the HS 123, HS129, JU87s, and FW190s for CAS/dive bombing along the front.
The P-38 had problems in Europe because it lacked a speed advantage over the German fighters. It had a huge one over the Zero, so was able to actually boom and zoom, not fight an enemy that was as fast or faster AND more maneuverable. By the time the superb L-series was available in Europe D-day was about to happen and the P-51 had already killed the Luftwaffe. Perhaps if it had been available sooner it could have used it's extra speed to do what the P-51 did (which BTW was less maneuverable than the German fighters it faced).
Cool, thanks for the extra interesting tidbit of info. So it seems then your original stance was the correct one then, cancel the BF110 in favor of the FW 187 and HS124. The more I read on and think about the FW187, the more impressed I am. I wonder how the Battle of Britain would have fared with say 500 long ranged FW187s complementing the other German fighters, and far more importantly escorting the HE111, JU88, and DO17 bombers. Furthermore, FW187s at the battle of Crete would've had quite the impact; perhaps this long ranged fighters could have at least mitigated the huge losses of JU52s from enemy fighters. Anyone else have any thoughts on this part?

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Re: What If instead of Bf110, Fw187 AND Hs124?

#10

Post by Sheldrake » 12 Jul 2016, 11:26

General91 wrote:
stg 44 wrote:
General91 wrote: Thanks STG. Well, I think you've addressed my concerns then with both aircraft. Last night I was also considering the boom and zoom tactics, and the P-38s success in the Pacific. I counter balanced that though with the perceived, maybe not failure, but poor battle results in the ETO. So I wasn't sure if the FW187 would be up to the task as a capable long range fighter escort, but I was hoping I was wrong! That said though I think you're right, turning wasn't as important overall as the other tactical options open to the FW187 where it would excel at, such as speed and climb/dive rates. As for the deep strike missions of the HS124, that makes sense. Hit targets other planes cant get to, tear up allied logistics and transportation, etc; meanwhile save the HS 123, HS129, JU87s, and FW190s for CAS/dive bombing along the front.
The P-38 had problems in Europe because it lacked a speed advantage over the German fighters. It had a huge one over the Zero, so was able to actually boom and zoom, not fight an enemy that was as fast or faster AND more maneuverable. By the time the superb L-series was available in Europe D-day was about to happen and the P-51 had already killed the Luftwaffe. Perhaps if it had been available sooner it could have used it's extra speed to do what the P-51 did (which BTW was less maneuverable than the German fighters it faced).
Cool, thanks for the extra interesting tidbit of info. So it seems then your original stance was the correct one then, cancel the BF110 in favor of the FW 187 and HS124. The more I read on and think about the FW187, the more impressed I am. I wonder how the Battle of Britain would have fared with say 500 long ranged FW187s complementing the other German fighters, and far more importantly escorting the HE111, JU88, and DO17 bombers. Furthermore, FW187s at the battle of Crete would've had quite the impact; perhaps this long ranged fighters could have at least mitigated the huge losses of JU52s from enemy fighters. Anyone else have any thoughts on this part?
This proves sod all. It is a counter factual fantasy based on wikipedia, and ignores the real, problems that occurred bringing any aircraft into service.

Lets start with the P38. Its reputation was tarnished in Europe because of the unreliability of its engines under European conditions. It didn't do particularly well against German single seat fighters.

The super performance claimed of the the DB600 Fw187 V6 using of 393mph used the surface oil cooling system as per the He100 and caused some buckling and distortion. This needs to be solved before there can be a super fighter.

Two aspect of the human factors in the design look like disadvanategs for a fighter. The narrow cockpit sounds fun over a three or four hour flight and the poor rear view is unhealthy.

Yup the P38 was a boom and zoom fighter - just like the Me109 and Fw190. It wasn't outstandingly better than either. The Me110 was almost as fast as a spitfire I and faster than an Hawker Hurricane. It could be flown BnZ against these aircraft. Until the P38L was introduced with dive brakes the P38 suffered from compressibility problems in a steep dive, as did the Me110. There was a danger of putting the aircraft into a dive from which it could not be recovered.

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Re: What If instead of Bf110, Fw187 AND Hs124?

#11

Post by stg 44 » 12 Jul 2016, 20:08

Sheldrake wrote: This proves sod all. It is a counter factual fantasy based on wikipedia, and ignores the real, problems that occurred bringing any aircraft into service.

Lets start with the P38. Its reputation was tarnished in Europe because of the unreliability of its engines under European conditions. It didn't do particularly well against German single seat fighters.

The super performance claimed of the the DB600 Fw187 V6 using of 393mph used the surface oil cooling system as per the He100 and caused some buckling and distortion. This needs to be solved before there can be a super fighter.

Two aspect of the human factors in the design look like disadvanategs for a fighter. The narrow cockpit sounds fun over a three or four hour flight and the poor rear view is unhealthy.

Yup the P38 was a boom and zoom fighter - just like the Me109 and Fw190. It wasn't outstandingly better than either. The Me110 was almost as fast as a spitfire I and faster than an Hawker Hurricane. It could be flown BnZ against these aircraft. Until the P38L was introduced with dive brakes the P38 suffered from compressibility problems in a steep dive, as did the Me110. There was a danger of putting the aircraft into a dive from which it could not be recovered.
A bit salty there. The evaporative cooling model added perhaps 20mph to the top speed, subtract that and say top speed was 370mph, that's still better than the Spitfire in 1940. That's not even the DB601A or N. Sure the tight cockpit is going to be a problem for early version for long range missions, but in the end it is still a boom and zoom fighter with linger time and a speed advantage, plus the same forward armament as the Bf110, which means any British SE fighter is mincemeat in 1940.

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Re: What If instead of Bf110, Fw187 AND Hs124?

#12

Post by T. A. Gardner » 12 Jul 2016, 21:53

I'd say the FW 187 would have turned out like the Westland Whirlwind. The design was too tight for major development. I doubt it would make a satisfactory night fighter as the fuselage really lacks the room for the necessary electronics and power supply for them. As a day fighter, it would have had a short, successful career then have been surpassed just as other twins were. Now you are left with a plane without a real useful mission.

The Hs 124 really isn't that much better than the Me 110, if at all. The Me 110 E was really a pretty capable light bomber.

On the whole, having one aircraft in production to do all the roles necessary really makes the Me 110 the right plane for the job it performed. Where Germany failed was in producing a replacement. The Me 210 / 410 series just never really got things right. The Ar 240 was a total lemon. Focke Wulf's FW 187 was just too small and the Ta 154, while it might have worked was a fail due to technical issues with adhesives for the wooden airframe.

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Re: What If instead of Bf110, Fw187 AND Hs124?

#13

Post by BDV » 12 Jul 2016, 22:28

I think when considering "everything" the Bf109 and 110 were just fine. The problem was more of the cascading avalanche of duties that Luftwaffe was tasked with as the war went from local to continental to global.

The only large-scale deployable wunderwaffe concepts for the Luftwaffe were the Do335, and/or a more thoroughly developed jet fighter.
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Re: What If instead of Bf110, Fw187 AND Hs124?

#14

Post by General91 » 14 Jul 2016, 05:41

Makes sense, very good thoughts and points everyone.

My primary focus with the Fw187 was more of the fact it could provide the Germans with a long range fighter better than the BF110 in air superiority missions, and where a Fw190 or Bf109 couldn't get to or stay for very long. Also wikipedia actually mentions that the Fw187 was too small for radar, so it was going to be purely a day fighter. Long range bomber escort and limited CAS is probably all it could handle.

As for being to tight/small for further development, didn't other aircraft like the Bf109 cope with this issue just fine? Throw on new DB605 engines in 1942/43 and it stays somewhat competitive doesn't it? Or perhaps the BMW 801s? I read Kurt Tank toyed with the idea of throwing the BMW 801s on there. As for firepower, the two 20mm and four 7.92mm as designed is sufficient to kill enemy fighters well through 1942/43; maybe upgrade the 7.92s to 13mms later on but that's all they would need to do to stay deadly even against heavily armored allied fighters mid to late war.

Thoughts?

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Re: What If instead of Bf110, Fw187 AND Hs124?

#15

Post by T. A. Gardner » 15 Jul 2016, 00:57

General91 wrote:Makes sense, very good thoughts and points everyone.

My primary focus with the Fw187 was more of the fact it could provide the Germans with a long range fighter better than the BF110 in air superiority missions, and where a Fw190 or Bf109 couldn't get to or stay for very long. Also wikipedia actually mentions that the Fw187 was too small for radar, so it was going to be purely a day fighter. Long range bomber escort and limited CAS is probably all it could handle.

As for being to tight/small for further development, didn't other aircraft like the Bf109 cope with this issue just fine? Throw on new DB605 engines in 1942/43 and it stays somewhat competitive doesn't it? Or perhaps the BMW 801s? I read Kurt Tank toyed with the idea of throwing the BMW 801s on there. As for firepower, the two 20mm and four 7.92mm as designed is sufficient to kill enemy fighters well through 1942/43; maybe upgrade the 7.92s to 13mms later on but that's all they would need to do to stay deadly even against heavily armored allied fighters mid to late war.

Thoughts?
The small - tight issue with the FW 187 is a big problem. Again, I'd use the example of Westland's Whirlwind. It was a similar tight design. It was so tight that the Peregrine engines (the only plane using them) couldn't be swapped out for the larger and heavier Merlin. When they were what you end up with is the Westland Welkin.

The 1939 / 40 Whirlwind:

Image

The much larger and heavier Welkin 1943 - 44

Image

The FW 187 would have faced a similar problem. It would have become useless as a day fighter just as the Me 110 did. What it lacked was the space internally for radar and electronics so it would have been difficult to make it a useful night fighter. Adding a second seat for a RIO / navigator and all the all-weather equipment would have resulted in no better a plane than the Me 110 that already had the room for these in the design.

Turning it into a fighter bomber / light bomber has the same effect. The Me 110E / F is just as good at this role, possibly better having the rear gunner position.

Sure, most of this could probably have been overcome in time but how much production does the Luftwaffe lose trying to sort out these problems? It's like buying into the Me 210 / 410 in early 1940. I could see Focke Wulf being allowed to continue to develop the design and if it got good enough, and somewhat bigger, it might have been a viable alternative to the Me 210 / 410. That part makes sense. It could have been used as an insurance policy against the failure of the Messerschmitt design.
The US was very good at doing that sort of thing, having several competing designs to the same spec and allowing those designs to progress for years even if they proved marginal.

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