The utility of a B-17 like aircraft for the Luftwaffe

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stg 44
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Re: The utility of a B-17 like aircraft for the Luftwaffe

#16

Post by stg 44 » 23 Sep 2015, 22:31

The point of strategic bombers was to inflict strategic level damage to take pressure off of the ground and air forces at the tactical and operational level, hopefully reducing fuel usage there; the question is whether they could take a wing of strategic bombers to inflict sufficient damage to make them worthwhile. Based on that I think Ju88s and He111 used about half that amount for their full capacity (Ju88s at full load had over 3500 liters capacity), so if one B17 could carry the tonnage of two He111s then its no addition fuel burden, especially if they could take on deep targets regular medium bombers could not.

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T. A. Gardner
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Re: The utility of a B-17 like aircraft for the Luftwaffe

#17

Post by T. A. Gardner » 29 Sep 2015, 20:44

stg 44 wrote:The point of strategic bombers was to inflict strategic level damage to take pressure off of the ground and air forces at the tactical and operational level, hopefully reducing fuel usage there; the question is whether they could take a wing of strategic bombers to inflict sufficient damage to make them worthwhile. Based on that I think Ju88s and He111 used about half that amount for their full capacity (Ju88s at full load had over 3500 liters capacity), so if one B17 could carry the tonnage of two He111s then its no addition fuel burden, especially if they could take on deep targets regular medium bombers could not.
But, numbers are important too. Now you have a bomber force half the size (and more like a quarter as a four engine bomber takes more than double the manufacturing effort of a twin). That means each loss is both harder to replace and impacts the remaining force far greater. So, now you have fuel issues and replacement issues and both are exacerbated by use of 4 engine bombers.


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JAG13
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Re: The utility of a B-17 like aircraft for the Luftwaffe

#18

Post by JAG13 » 08 Oct 2015, 22:39

stg 44 wrote:He complained constantly he didn't have his He177 ready historically:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinkel_H ... fficulties
By early August 1942 Reichsmarschall Hermann Göring became angry about the apparent slowness with which the He 177A's powerplant problems were being dealt with. On August 13 he responded as follows to a report by Oberst Edgar Petersen (the Kommandeur der Erprobungstellen, or "commander" of the German military aviation test facility network. later in WW II) about the He 177A's powerplant troubles, particularly containing remarks about the problems caused by the compromised design of the DB 606 powerplants' accommodation in the He 177A's engine nacelles, and resultant poor maintenance access: "Why has this silly engine suddenly turned up, which is so idiotically welded together? They told me then, there would be two engines connected behind each other, and suddenly there appears this misbegotten monster of welded-together engines one cannot get at!"[22]
Its irrelevant, no matter what aircraft you give the LW the problem was Goring and the institutional culture he had created within the LW.

Give him lots of bombers, he would have still misused them while allowing the British to read his mail...

Give them jets for that matter, it would make no difference.

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JAG13
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Re: The utility of a B-17 like aircraft for the Luftwaffe

#19

Post by JAG13 » 08 Oct 2015, 22:45

T. A. Gardner wrote:Where would the gasoline come from? The Luftwaffe could barely sustain a large air campaign with the aircraft they had. A B-17 /24 takes about 4 to 5 times the fuel a He 111 or Ju 88 does per mission. The Luftwaffe ran into the same problem with the He 177. They couldn't scrape up the necessary fuel to keep even a small fleet of these flying on a regular basis.
The LW couldnt operate the He-177 since they were busy attacking their former fuel supplier. Now, from the supply point of view a He-177 likely used LESS fuel to move a given tonnage of bombs since it could carry more than three times the He-111 standard load.

They would also require less materials, less production hours and, most importantly, one less crew to recruit and train than the 2-3 He-111s they would be replacing.

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Re: The utility of a B-17 like aircraft for the Luftwaffe

#20

Post by maltesefalcon » 16 Oct 2015, 03:53

Lets bear in mind one major reason the Allies switched from medium bombers to heavy bombers for strategic attacks.
For the most part they needed to fly from England or Italy to Germany and back. Thus greater fuel capacity, thus bigger plane, thus bigger bomb load etc.

The Germans didn't really need to do that.
They could fly bombers from bases in France, Belgium, Holland or Norway onto targets in the UK. Much shorter range.

However they needed lots of longer range escort fighters to make a strategic campaign survivable, therefore viable in the long term. The Reich never really committed to that. So many single engine fighters ended up seconded to ground operations there weren't enough to go around.

We must also take into account that the Allied campaign really had much less impact than the Allies realized or hoped until 1944. But the Germans had all the damage figures. Not much incentive for them to follow suit until it was far too late.

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Re: The utility of a B-17 like aircraft for the Luftwaffe

#21

Post by Plain Old Dave » 17 Oct 2015, 02:54

The biggest problem I see is a dearth of critical thought on the strategic use of airpower; a German heavy bomber in all probability would have been relegated to maritime patrol as the Luftwaffe would have been dubious at best of an aircraft incapable of close air support.

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