General Gott not killed, takes over 8th army

[stg 44]

Historically in 1942 General Gott was tapped to take over 8th army, but was killed by German fighters on a flight to Cairo after a visit to the front, leading Monty to take over the 8th. Arguably he was assassinated by the Germans who had intercepted radio communications about his flight. What if for whatever reason the Germans don't find out and Gott survives to take over the 8th army?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Gott

A big man with an aggressive, outgoing personality, he was popular with soldiers under his command, but as a senior commander he was considered by some to be out of his depth. The South African official historian, J. A. I. Agar-Hamilton, wrote of Gott:

It has not been unknown for a commander to pass from disaster to disaster, but it is quite without precedent for any commander to pass from promotion to promotion as a reward for a succession of disasters.[26]

John Bierman and Colin Smith say that Gott was much admired for his personal qualities, but lacked real military skill. He was one of the few senior officers who was "well known and well liked by the rank and file". However, "a cold appraisal of his soldiering in North Africa reveals no stunning display of tactics or Rommel-esque grip that bends scarred and exhausted men to the will of the born leader."[27] Michael Carver, one of Gott's officers and later a field marshal, took a similar view. He stated that Gott was the one person to whom "all, high and low, turned for advice, sympathy, help and encouragement", but he also believed that Gott was "too good a man to be a really great soldier".[27] Churchill himself seems to have accepted that he made a mistake in promoting Gott over Montgomery. Alan Brooke recalled that after seeing how Montgomery had revitalised the Eighth Army, Churchill commented on "the part that the hand of God had taken in removing Gott at the critical moment".[28]

Apparently Gott was not a great commander and may have screwed up at El Alamein. What do you think would have happened if he were in charge?

[Von Schadewald]

The Germans take Alexandria, pro-Nazis in Cairo like the young Anwat Sadat raise cain, British blow the lining of the Suez Canal forcing its water to drain in to the desert and then flee like whipped-puppies in to the arms of the "cheesed-off" Australians in the north levant, the Afrika Korps crosses Sinai, arrives at the Negev where it is renamed the Asia Korps, Hitler is invited to Jerusalem by Haj Amin al Husseini to overview the annihihation of the 400,000 Jews of the Yishuv, then pummel on down to the Shatt al Arab where Japanese submarines are rwaiting to revictual.....

[Fatboy Coxy]

I could see a situation not unlike Ritchie's with Gott being pressure to attack Rommel by Churchill, and despite the large allied numerical advantage in troops, tanks and supplies, squandering them, and being fought to a standstill. Possibly given a second chance, and with the North African landings happening, forcing Rommel to retreat, Gott could have stayed around a bit longer. However by the Tunisian campaign, I would envisage poor performances leading to his replacement, possibly on health reasons, because he was already quite tired when he took command. Whether Monty would have been available or not is another question.

[ChristopherPerrien]

Nothing changes. Rommel is still operating at the furthest distance from his logistics base, with little supplies and a precarious line of supply. The British were in prepared defensive positions, closest to their logistics base and they had mountains of supplies from the US and the British Empire and far outnumbered the Germans in "everything".*

It would have taken an unexperienced British moron to lose 2nd Alamein. Gott certainnly was not. On the flip side it was logistically impossible for Rommel to win in Egypt. Why he tried , I don't know. Tunnel-vision?

*- I am not including the drain on German supplies caused by the Italians , since the Italians did contribute some ships and trucks.

[Kingfish]

On the flip side it was logistically impossible for Rommel to win in Egypt. Why he tried , I don't know. Tunnel-vision?

Can you blame him?
Consider the events leading up to the stall just outside the Alamein line. Defeat of 8th Army at Gazala, capture of Tobruk and entire SA 2nd ID, rout the defenders at Mersa Matruh - all signs pointed to the possibility of pushing to the Delta.

[ChristopherPerrien]

Yes, but when you are operating on a way past dangerously rickety overextended supply line with only about 50 good tanks , why go further/ Especially when it will gain nothing.

Even if the Germans made to the canal, so what? It was not being used in WWII except to supply the 8th army to some extent. Malta's supplies came from the other direction.

And the oil reserves and facilities, of the Middle East would have been long destroyed and would have take years and 100's of shiploads of supplies and equipment to restore. So why go there?

And he surely did not have the men, equipment or supplies, to say, drive all the way to Caucasus, even with no resistance.

Rommel should have stopped at the Egyptian border, retreated, and consolidated the Italian position on the African continent and called it day. His meager forces and supplies would have lasted far longer on the defense. And why pointlessly waste German lives extending the ramshackle Italian Empire in Africa ? Egyptian cotton?

The was no prize or point for Rommel's continued offense.

Did he have any actual orders to do what he did. What did OKW prefer/advise him to do?
And for what reasons?

It has been so many years since I looked at the African campaign, I can't readily place the the details.

[Aber]

It would have taken an unexperienced British moron to lose 2nd Alamein. Gott certainnly was not. On the flip side it was logistically impossible for Rommel to win in Egypt. Why he tried , I don't know. Tunnel-vision?

It was possible for the British to lose Alma Halfa, when Rommel attacked, if the British had fought the 'modern defensive battle' that was planned, and misused their tanks again.

Given the depth of defences and minefields for Second Alamein, it was not an easy battle to win, despite the RAF view.

[Carl Schwamberger]

My question revolves around Gotts tactical and operational style. I've noticed 8th Army ops in the previous year had been characterized by tactical fragmentation. The armored divisions seem to have been fighting as brigades, a corps of disjointed brigades not properly supporting each other. This fragmentation extended to the artillery. The cannon regiments & batteries seem to often to be parceled out to the brigades, disconnected and uncoordinated with each other. I recall a quote from a company commander in a British tank regiment. Commenting on operations in Africa after his arrival in early 1941 he noted: Tactical ops were not conducted as had been trained in the UK. Units operated piecemeal & without regards to the combined arms principles taught in the UK.

All this seems to have changed when Monty took over. The artillery had its communications links reestablished and 'supported' the other arms without command fragmentation. Armored divisions remained under the control of the division commanders & were not scattered in brigade or smaller packets. Maybe Gott would have reversed the bad practices I dont know. Any experts know how he did in this regard as a corps commander?

[Carl Schwamberger]

The Germans take Alexandria, pro-Nazis in Cairo like the young Anwat Sadat raise cain, British blow the lining of the Suez Canal forcing its water to drain in to the desert and then flee like whipped-puppies in to the arms of the "cheesed-off" Australians in the north levant, the Afrika Korps crosses Sinai, arrives at the Negev where it is renamed the Asia Korps, Hitler is invited to Jerusalem by Haj Amin al Husseini to overview the annihihation of the 400,000 Jews of the Yishuv, then pummel on down to the Shatt al Arab where Japanese submarines are rwaiting to revictual.....

India revolts and under combined Japanese/German leadership ten million Indian soldiers sweep north, riding on the tanks of Pz Army Asia as Japanese infantry clear the flanks with banzai charges & Zeros clear the skies overhead. Slicing into Siberia Rommel splits Russia & joins hands with Von Paulus on the banks of the Volga shaking hands in the ruins of Moscow as the Ivan hordes surrender in their Stalingrad enclave.

[Russ Schulke]

Von Paulus? Paulus!

http://www.fireonthevolga.com

Russ